Forum - View topicBest Supporting Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Changing my vote in D-24 to Gai.
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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Group D-17
Kuu, Haibane Renmei vs. Walter C. Dornez, Hellsing franchise Kuu, but narrowly. I feel that some of the arguments about Kuu not playing so large a part in Haibane Renmei are based in a failure to understand how important she is to the story. Without her, the meaning of the haibane Day of Flight would never be sufficiently clear, and the emotional climax of the series' end would be much weaker. Group D-18 Osono, Kiki’s Delivery Service vs. Jiriya, Naruto franchise Osono is a memorably kind and loveable character, she gets my vote. Group D-19 Meme Oshino, Bakemonogatari vs. Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit I like Oshino, he's entertaining -- but he's not really a very important character in the anime. I'm going to go with Tanda, here. Group D-20 Euphemia li Brittania, Code Geass vs. Kaname Chidori, Koi Kaze Kaname Chidori, I guess. Group D-21 Nagi, Time of Eve vs. Ami Kawashima, Toradora! Ami Kawashima, absolutely. Group D-22 Osamu Akaishi, Cross Game vs. Pedro, Excel Saga Pedro has met his match, in my opinion. Osamu Akaishi is a continually surprising character. Behind his blocky exterior is a deeply sensitive man with a strong sense of integrity. Many of the events in Cross Game are given special significance because the viewer is given the opportunity to see them through the mirror of Akaishi's insights. Also, he has some of the very best lines in the anime. Group D-23 Akio Furukawa, Clannad franchise vs. Miwako Sakurada, Paradise Kiss This was a bit hard, but I'm going to pick Miwako Sakurada. Group D-24 Gai Daigoji/Jiro Yamada, Martian Successor Nadesico vs. Wizardmon, Digimon franchise Gai Daigoji/Jiro Yamada, absolutely. - abunai |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6585 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Please don't be patronising, abunai. I, and I imagine others, understand Kuu's role. The problem is, she is unconvincing in that role. Any of the Haibane could have taken her place. There is nothing intrinsically special about her character that required her, and only her, to have the day of flight. We can only speculate about her qualification. |
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Spastic Minnow
 Bargain HunterExempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4631 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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Group D-17
Kuu, Haibane Renmei vs. Walter C. Dornez, Hellsing franchise voting for: Kuu Group D-18 Osono, Kiki’s Delivery Service vs. Jiriya, Naruto franchise voting for: Osono I'm happy to destroy my own mini-game in support of Osono, a simple character who does so much with small kindnesses- the type of character that helps make Miyazaki's stories so wondrous. Group D-19 Meme Oshino, Bakemonogatari vs. Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit voting for: Meme Oshino I haven't been paying attention this week. Have people really only been able to say that Meme's only strength is his colorfulness? Well, it is important- Being memorable is just about as important as being useful. And while Tanda is useful and helpful he's ultimately just something like the male version of Winry, the helpful nice guy to come home to, except with less personality. Meme has personality and serves his supporting role in the way that his serie's needs- which is just about the opposite of how Tanda serves his. Tanda supports the heroine who needs to be heroic because no one else will do it and she has the skills to do it. He makes things easier for her. Meme on the other had, with his vague clues and jibes, supports the hero who should probably just quit being the hero- his powers are dwindling and he really should just try being a regular kid. Meme makes things hard on purpose because he wants to show Koyomi that he can't rely on his help and that playing the hero will eventually get him killed. Yet he seems to know Koyomi's limits- knows that, for now, he will be able to survive. Group D-20 Euphemia li Brittania, Code Geass vs. Kaname Chidori, Koi Kaze voting for: Euphemia li Brittania Group D-21 Nagi, Time of Eve vs. Ami Kawashima, Toradora! voting for: Ami Kawashima Group D-22 Osamu Akaishi, Cross Game vs. Pedro, Excel Saga voting for: Pedro Group D-23 Akio Furukawa, Clannad franchise vs. Miwako Sakurada, Paradise Kiss voting for: Akio Furukawa, Like Meme but more so, Akio has loads of personality and is an indispensable source of support for his family and Tomoya. Group D-24 Gai Daigoji/Jiro Yamada, Martian Successor Nadesico vs. Wizardmon, Digimon franchise voting for: Wizardmon |
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abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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I'm hardly being patronising -- but I've got it in stock, if you feel the need. I was addressing your arguments, but if you want to feel snippy and offended, that's your right. Just keep it out of the thread.
That is quite right -- but it's also completely beside the point. You are ignoring the fact that Kuu's part was to be that very character, the haibane who went through what she did. Sure, it could have happened to any of the others, but it happened to her.
Each haibane is a character, playing a part. There is nothing intrinsically special about any of them. Yet they have their rôles, and we judge them by the way they fulfill those rôles. Kuu's part is what is being evaluated in this tournament, and the impact it has on the story -- that is what "supporting character" is all about. Like it or not, you can't have the ending of Haibane Renmei without Kuu's contribution to the viewer's understanding of the haibane Day of Flight. Without it, the climax becomes far weaker. That being the case, Kuu's part is essential. You argue that any of the haibane could have carried this part of the story, and you're right, but it's a completely immaterial point -- because none of them did. Only Kuu. Next time you want to argue, drop the personal attacks. I'm not interested in them. - abunai |
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Aylinn
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The same kind of argument can be used against Euphemia. Euphy is at the center of the tragedy, but it was neiter her intention nor her fault that she was turned into spoiler["Massacre Princess".] She created SAZ, but spoiler[she died and we don't know whether this plan would work out.] There is nothing in Euphy herself that makes her outstanding. She is a naive, sweet, peace-loving princess, in terms of character a clone of Relena Peacecraft and the rest of peace-loving princesses from Gundam. |
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RHachicho
 Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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@Key You are right mate I have edited my vote post and changed from Meme to Tanda.
A good point Abunai and one I had not considered. Even if we do consider it like this however I feel that Kuu had no depth at all beyond doing what she was meant to do. She feels like an astonishingly well written writer's convenience. I would also argue against there being nothing intrinsically special about any of them. Several. Almost all of the characters had distinct personalities apart from Kuu. It could be argued that this was deliberate so she could be punted to her day of flight with no set up episodes. However I do not believe this was the case. As for her effect after the story it kinda felt artificial. It seemed as though one minute Kuu and the cast where casual accuaintances and then all of a sudden they where devastated by her loss. To me it seemed that the effect of Kuu was something rather superimposed to get the main plot moving. A kind of contrived force fed baseless emotional closeness that according to my opinion is what Kuu's supporters fail to understand and I will stick to my guns on this one. 
Note : I am not saying that HR was a completely bad show or that Kuu totally sucked as a support character I am simply saying that both Kuu is getting to much credit and Walter far too little. This round should be ALOT closer.
I strongly disagree. Euphemia played a huge active role in events around herspoiler[ disobeying her family and royal tradition to try and do what she felt was right. This coupled with the manner of her death is one of the few Anime moments that seriously wrenched my gut. Compare that to Kuu's "death" and I was pretty much like oh Kuu's gone 'shrug' It is that lack of emotional connection from the part of the viewer that really highlights kuu's failings as a support character. ] I do not wan't to get case by case here as I don't want to be here all day. But I feel that Euphemia is in a completely different league from Kuu as a support character. To me shedefinately has NO resemblance to a certain ms. Peacecraft either. Euphemia tried to attain peace as they always do so through a combination of learned political savity no doubt family taught and almost total world naivety. In this respect and this alone she is similar to Relena. For that matter if you are going to attack "peace loving princess" archetype simply because it exists then let's get rid of every other one that exists including the ones that you like. You can't just attack a character purely because she is a member of a common archetype that you don't like. If we are going to do that then we can pretty much scythe away 80% of the characters in this tournament right now. In fact the mere fact someone is a supporting character makes them almost certain to fall into one archetype or another. Let alone the quite plausible argument that many put forth that there are in fact NO original characters anymore. And well I think I have made my point. |
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nightjuan
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Haven't voted yet and, quite predictably, probably won't do so until sometime tomorrow...but I'm going to make a couple of comments in the meanwhile.
I believe that's not an entirely accurate assessment and the last statement is particularly misleading, in all honesty, because the fates and actual roles of the mentioned characters vary quite a bit in each of their respective series. Having said that, I don't intend to go too off-topic here so I'll focus on Euphemia herself. On the one hand, creating the SAZ was a rather bold move for someone who was originally meant to be nothing more than a decorative figure. It went against the interests of both her sister Cornelia, who wanted to enforce standard Britannian policy by repressing all dissent, and her brother Lelouch, who was all about fighting against Britannia through open rebellion. Neither of them were happy about it. Regardless of any debate about the long term chances of success, the immediate effects of the plan were an absolute game-changer for both sides. It wasn't something they could just ignore and hide under the carpet. People tend to dismiss compromises, in both fiction and the real world, but pushing them through often requires a considerable strength of character and a degree of personal sacrifice for those involved. In Euphemia's case, she had to give up her claim to the throne and all related rights. In essence, that would make her politically useless after the fact in exchange for achieving something she believed in. That's not an intrinsically naive attitude, in my humble opinion, but quite the opposite. The basics of her world view might qualify as naive, granted, but not her decision in and of itself. By that point in time Euphemia had already accumulated a bit of life experience. In other words, I see that as a sign of character progression. Euphemia went from someone who occasionally got in trouble but ultimately did whatever she was told, which meant living a sheltered life, to someone fully capable of making her own decisions and seeing them through, which meant taking risks and dealing with the consequences. On the other hand, beyond all of the above there's the issue of a character's lasting impact. In this case, there are at least a few aspects worth mentioning...several of which spoil the rest of the Code Geass story (R2 included). a)spoiler[Euphemia's death led to far more animosity between Lelouch and Suzaku than anything else we had seen before. Neither of them were quite the same after this. They gave in to some of their worst instincts and the issue itself became an unavoidable obstacle.] b)spoiler[Nunnally admired Euphemia and eventually tried to follow her example, albeit with less success...which is appropriate since both the Japanese and the Britannians were fully aware of the tragic precedent.] c)spoiler[Nina was traumatized, to put it lightly, and tried to blow everyone up. Failing that, her memory of Euphemia was used by Schneizel as a means of manipulation, which gave him access to weapons of mass destruction.] d)spoiler[The fact that Lelouch's ultimate plan involved forever ruining his own life and reputation was, to a large extent, a direct result of his unresolved guilt for having done the same to Euphemia. The specifics have been rightfully criticized, because the plan is unrealistic, but my point merely concerns his motivations.] I would say this proves, one way or another, that Euphemia was a highly influential character (even if not always in the most positive sense, as can be easily deduced). I'm not, however, making an argument against Kaname Chidori. |
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abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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I don't agree with you on this, but I can see where you're coming from. Yes, if you don't see Kuu as a character in her own right, but merely as a plot device, I can well understand your problems with her. Needless to say, that is not my opinion. I don't see Kuu as lacking in personality -- she is a distinct personality type, the laidback type. What you see as deficiency, I see as an understated, relaxed character. In a way, it is precisely that relaxation which is part of Kuu's essential purpose in the story. Bearing in mind the backgrounds of the haibane, and their common need to deal with traumatic issues from previous lives, Kuu represents the perfect example of one way to move on: by chilling out and just learning to enjoy life again. This is the lesson she teaches by her transition. Now, it's a fair argument to say that she seems (to you, not to me) to be nothing more than the sum of her rôle, without individual character traits. But that is, in many ways, true of all supporting characters. They aren't the main cast -- they exist to move the story along or illustrate aspects of the story to the viewer. And if they do that well, and we find them memorable, then they're good suppotring characters. Kuu would seem to fit the bill.
Leaving aside for the moment my grammar-nazi need to point out that "a lot" should be two words, not one, I agree with you. Walter is a fine supporting character in his own right, and I completely understand your feeling that he is being short-changed. However, that is how it goes in these contests. There have already (in the first round, in fact) been some eliminations that I felt were "unfair" (although they weren't, really, it was just the luck of the draw), because those characters deserved a better chance to shine. But hey, that's how a tournament like this works. - abunai |
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The Naked Beast
 Posts: 1028 Location: A Blue Planet |
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Group D-17
Kuu, Haibane Renmei vs. Walter C. Dornez, Hellsing franchise There is no other way to say this other than Kuu's spoiler[departure from the series is an emotional one]. There is a lot of debate about the underlying symbolism in Haibane Renmei and what the Haibane themselves symbolize. When all's said and done, Kuu's friendship with Rakka is a close one. Despite recently ending up in Glie and Old Home, Rakka quickly becomes good friends with Kuu. Her spoiler["Day of Flight"/departure] left the Haibane with the grim reality of their eventual dreaded yet mysterious spoiler["Day of Flight"]. While this is all shrouded in mysteries and riddles, Kuu's role may actually be emotional support/motivation for the other Haibane to discover their spoiler["Day of Flight"]. My vote goes to: Kuu. Group D-18 Osono, Kiki’s Delivery Service vs. Jiriya, Naruto franchise My vote goes to: Osono. Group D-19 Meme Oshino, Bakemonogatari vs. Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit My vote goes to: Tanda. Group D-20 Euphemia li Brittania, Code Geass vs. Kaname Chidori, Koi Kaze Despite Euphy's ambition of establishing the Special Administrative Zone of Japan, her efforts led to her spoiler[accidental death]. This one single action led to the roller coaster-themed finale and Lelouch's overall ambition/plan in R2. Aside from the rest of the Britannian royal family, she is one of the very few royal family members that Lelouch genuinely loves, in a brotherly-sisterly sort of way. This is saying a lot for those of you who are familiar with the Code Geass series. My vote goes to: Euphemia li Brittania. Group D-21 Nagi, Time of Eve vs. Ami Kawashima, Toradora! My vote goes to: Ami Kawashima. Group D-22 Osamu Akaishi, Cross Game vs. Pedro, Excel Saga My vote goes to: Osamu Akaishi. Group D-23 Akio Furukawa, Clannad franchise vs. Miwako Sakurada, Paradise Kiss My vote goes to: Akio Furukawa. Group D-24 Gai Daigoji/Jiro Yamada, Martian Successor Nadesico vs. Wizardmon, Digimon franchise My vote goes to: Wizardmon. |
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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Group D-17
Kuu, Haibane Renmei vs. Walter C. Dornez, Hellsing franchise Voting for: Walter I'm a bit torn here because Walter was quite memorable in Hellsing, all things considered, but Kuu seems to generally have the more interesting arguments backing her from the sound of things. Ultimately, I guess my reasoning is that Walter shouldn't go down without a fight in spite of Kuu's technically superior merits. Group D-18 Osono, Kiki’s Delivery Service vs. Jiriya, Naruto franchise Voting for: Osono Group D-19 Meme Oshino, Bakemonogatari vs. Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Voting for: Tanda Group D-20 Euphemia li Brittania, Code Geass vs. Kaname Chidori, Koi Kaze Voting for: Euphemia Well, I've already made the case for her. There's not much else I can say. Kaname Chidori sounds like a strong contender and -together with some of Key's comments elsewhere- I'm seriously thinking about watching Koi Kaze at some point in the near future despite my initial reluctance. If I valued realism and plausibility above all else, this would probably be an incredibly easy pick. However, that's not necessarily how I roll. While it's clear that she is intimately involved and serves a useful role as the so-called "voice of reason"...one of my doubts is that I'm not sure about how to measure her actual impact. And no, the fact that she spoiler[failed] isn't what I'm thinking about. The issue goes beyond that. Still, she seems to be a perfectly valid alternative and I won't really mind if she moves on to the next round instead. Group D-21 Nagi, Time of Eve vs. Ami Kawashima, Toradora! Voting for: Ami Kawashima Group D-22 Osamu Akaishi, Cross Game vs. Pedro, Excel Saga Voting for: Osamu Akaishi As much as I like Pedro more than a sizable chunk of the Excel Saga cast surrounding him, Akaishi's role in Cross Game is important enough and deserves some recognition. For a character that would be easy to dismiss on superficial aesthetic grounds, he provides interesting commentary and manages to be more likable than what most expected. Group D-23 Akio Furukawa, Clannad franchise vs. Miwako Sakurada, Paradise Kiss Voting for: Akio Furukawa Group D-24 Gai Daigoji/Jiro Yamada, Martian Successor Nadesico vs. Wizardmon, Digimon franchise Voting for: Gai Daigoji/Jiro Yamada Wizardmon is alright but I believe some of the best arguments in favor of Gai were made by ManOfRust during the previous round and they're still applicable here. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16963 |
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Group D-17
Walter C. Dornez, Hellsing franchise Reason: I like Kuu don't get me wrong bu Walter is just the epitome of good supporting character. He's strong and capable and vital to the plot moving on. The main characters rely on him and his expertise themselves and without him would not succeed possibly. Plus they respect him which says something given who the main character is. Group D-18 Jiriya, Naruto franchise Reason: Much like Walter Jiriya just is a shining example of a supporting character. He's critical to the plot and other characters. He's strong and can stand on his own as well. The main characters rely on him and respect him and even when he's not around his presence is felt. Group D-19 Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Group D-20 Kaname Chidori, Koi Kaze Reason: Not sure on this one but the arguments and guide I think are more convincing towards Kaname. Group D-21 Nagi, Time of Eve Group D-22 Pedro, Excel Saga Group D-23 Miwako Sakurada, Paradise Kiss Reason: Torn on this one but the arguments have swayed me to Miwako. Group D-24 Gai Daigoji/Jiro Yamada, Martian Successor Nadesico Reason: Gotta agree with others his lasting impression is going to get my vote for now. |
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Bluebeard
 Posts: 267 Location: Massachusetts |
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Group D-17
Kuu, Haibane Renmei vs. Walter C. Dornez, Hellsing franchise Kuu Group D-18 Osono, Kiki’s Delivery Service vs. Jiriya, Naruto franchise Jiriya Group D-19 Meme Oshino, Bakemonogatari vs. Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Tanda Group D-20 Euphemia li Brittania, Code Geass vs. Kaname Chidori, Koi Kaze Kaname This round contains 2 of the most memorable characters I've seen. Kaname and Akio. Koi Kaze was one of the earlier anime series I've been so it's been a while since I've seen it, but Kaname still made a strong impression on me. Characters like her are why I enjoy watching anime. Group D-21 Nagi, Time of Eve vs. Ami Kawashima, Toradora! Ami Group D-22 Osamu Akaishi, Cross Game vs. Pedro, Excel Saga Pedro Group D-23 Akio Furukawa, Clannad franchise vs. Miwako Sakurada, Paradise Kiss Akio Akio steals every scene he's in. Thankfully he is an important part of the plot because otherwise he would distract from the plot if he was solely a comic character. Clannad uses him perfectly. He's a comic when appropriate, but foremost a father. Group D-24 Gai Daigoji/Jiro Yamada, Martian Successor Nadesico vs. Wizardmon, Digimon franchise Gai Daigoji/Jiro Yamada |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18460 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 2 is now closed.
With 20 votes, Group D was our lightest-voting set yet. The results: D-17: Kuu defeats Walter Dornez, 13-7. D-18: Osono over Jiriya, 14-6. D-19: Tanda pulls away from Meme late, 13-7. D-20: Euphemia li Britannia outlasts Kaname Chidori 12-8. D-21: Ami Kawashima beats Nagi 14-6. D-22: Pedro scrapes by Osamu Akaishi on last-minute votes, 11-9. D-23: Akio Furukawa beats Miwako Sakurada 13-7. D-24: Gai Daigoji upstages Wizardmon 14-6. Although there was only one match which went down to the wire, none of these contests were blow-outs. In fact, this may be one of the smallest average % margins for victory that I can recall in a second round. Moreso than in other groups, I think we lost a quality set of competitors here (albeit to worthy competition), and I have to wonder how many people who voted for Pedro have actually seen Cross Game and how many might have changed their minds if they had. Oh, well. Next round may be a little while, as I have to make sure the video clips are in line and take care of a couple of other things first (like eating my much-belated dinner. . .). It will still be up before I go to bed, though. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18460 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 3 Group A is now closed.
Results can be found here. For those who are newcomers to the tournaments this time around, certain things change with the beginning of Round 3. First, video clips are now available for all survivors; they can be accessed off of the Guide page for each contestant. If you don't know one or both of the characters in a match-up, looking at these clips is a way to make a more informed decision. The second update involves justifying votes. This must now be done for all matches, though only one of the justifications needs to be more substantial than a single-line explanation. Newcomers should follow the lead of long-time participants on what is and is not acceptable on this, or feel free to PM me and check if you're still not sure. Group A-25 Maes Hughes, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Haruka Tenoh/Sailor Uranus, Sailor Moon Group A-26 Nabuca, Now and Then, Here and There vs. Genkai, Yu Yu Hakusho Group A-27 Lt. Yamamoto The Irresponsible Captain Tylor vs. Kimura, Azumanga Daioh Group A-28 Renge Hoshakuji, Ouran High School Host Club vs. Nabeshin, Excel Saga, et al. Last edited by Key on Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:16 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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