Forum - View topicANN Book Club -- Gankutsuou
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rainbowcourage
 Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Hello, and welcome to the ANN Book Club.
Over the next six weeks we'll be watching and discussing The Count of Monte Cristo. The good news? Anyone can participate at any time, as long as you abide by a few simple rules: 1. Don’t discuss episodes ahead of the schedule. You can skip ahead, but don't talk about it. Don’t even use spoiler tags as an excuse. You can slightly foreshadow if you like, saying, “Remember what happens in that scene, it will be important in episode 5,” but absolutely no spoilage. On the other end of the spectrum, since this thread will be indexed, I would like to give a spoilertag-free thread a shot. That's a free pass to everyone who wants to use spoilers for a set of episodes we're discussing without the obnoxious black tags--and it's also a warning to all future readers of this thread. Don't come crying to me if you didn't read the OP. This means that you should probably only read/join the discussion on a set of episodes if you have already seen them. 2. Don’t be afraid to speak up about anything and everything you notice in the show, so long as you find it interesting or meaningful. Your opinion and participation are what will make this thread memorable. You are also welcome to catch up with the current schedule at any time, even if we are discussing further along in the schedule.* *rules modified and borrowed from JesuOtaku 3. This is less of a rule and more of a guideline, but since I will try to index the schedule rigorously, if you are the first person to comment on a new set of episodes, go ahead and label your post Episodes #-# in size 20 and a color. You can make it purple if you like me, or a different color if you don't like me. 
You can watch it here for free, legally, both subbed and dubbed. Gankutsuou is a rich character study, stunning visually, and an interesting comparison to the original source material. Let's have fun! Episodes 1-4: Dec. 22-Dec. 29 (spoilers) Episodes 5-8: Dec. 29-Jan. 5 (spoilers) Episodes 9-12: Jan. 5-Jan.12 (spoilers) Episodes 13-16: Jan. 12-Jan. 19 (spoilers) Episodes 17-20: Jan. 19-Jan. 26 (spoilers) Episodes 21-24: Jan. 26-Feb. 2 (spoilers) Last edited by rainbowcourage on Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:33 pm; edited 15 times in total |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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So is discussion open yet for the first four episodes? Or is this week for watching the episodes and the next week is for talking about them? I ask this because the thread has been open for a while now, and no-one has posted. Sure, it is Christmas, but you'd think at least someone would have posted . . .
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DerekTheRed
 Posts: 3544 Location: ::Points to hand:: |
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Yeah, I hate Funi's player. It doesn't want to buffer fast enough, and it keeps disconnecting me. It's always a huge hassle for me to watch anything there, so I guess I'll watch the first 4 through ANN and play it by ear after that.
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TheTheory
 Posts: 1029 Location: Central PA |
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Yeah, discussion is open. I'm hoping to get to the episodes either this evening or tomorrow. |
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Prede
 Posts: 388 |
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The entire series is avaible, legally on Youtube from Funimation (it's the dub only). I find everything plays better on youtube then Funi's portal. i wish they would just upload everything to youtube when they add it to their portal, so I don't develop high blood pressure. Because their video portal really anoys me at times. I'll be writing up something in a little bit. I want to buy the DVDs because this series is amazing, so once I get them then I'll watch it and comment. Should be soon. If I don't get around to buying them I'll just watch it on youtube for now. But I want the DVDs for this amazing show lol. Also was just watching a little bit of the first episode on funi's youtube page, and it's still headache inducing for me. God it's painful to watch this show, makes my head spin. But the story is so good. |
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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I was hoping someone else wanted to kick this off, but for now I'll start the party. Summaries for this round are provided by yours truly.
Episodes 1-4 (Spoilers) Episode 1: At Journey’s End, We Meet Summary ~Young Viscount Albert de Morcerf is on holiday with best friend Baron Franz d’Epinay on Luna, a planet where your every wish is granted. Soon, Albert becomes enamored of the enigmatic Count of Monte Cristo, a mysterious new member of the aristocracy, though Franz harbors doubts about the Count’s authenticity. Indeed, it seems that the Count may have ulterior motives for the attention he lavishes on Albert. At the end of the episode, Albert is entrapped by a girl from the Carnival who first seduces him before pointing a gun at him.~ To me, the most important scene in this episode was the card scene. It showed off how well the Count can twist words (playing with people’s lives and calling it a game?), and how easily Albert is manipulated. He failed to think outside the box. If the Count has the power to pardon one man, why couldn’t they pardon all the innocent men? Why couldn’t Albert at least choose who to save? He failed to even ask these questions. Franz became the voice of reason, but the scene and especially the cards illustrated the types of mazes the Count is capable of setting up. There are no easy answers; either way the Count set things up so that Albert would feel guilty afterwards. If he did nothing, all three men would die; and if he chose to save one good man, still the other would die, leaving us with the question of whether or not men can “play God” as the Count suggests. Franz is one of my favorite characters (probably of all-time), and his overbearing protectiveness of Albert becomes important later. He’s also one of the few people who is never completely taken in or fooled by the Count. I also love how the visuals of Luna really contribute to the idea that there, all your desires can be granted. They’re colorful, erotic, and perhaps more glamorous than the other gorgeous visuals we’re going to see throughout the series. 
Part of what makes the visual style so pleasing is the liney-ness of everything which separates patterns and layers from each other so distinctly, as seen below in Albert's contrasting silhouette with the background. 
The title seems to foreshadow and link to the phrase on the clock- “Death is certain, its hour uncertain.” But it’s kind of spoilery, so that’s enough there. Episode 2: Until the Sun Rises Over the Moon Summary ~Albert has been kidnapped by notorious bandit Luigi Vampa, who is demanding fifty million duckets in ransom money before sunrise or he’s dead. Franz rushes around Luna frantically trying to find a lender, as the banks are closed; in the end, he must approach none other than the Count of Monte Cristo, the man he distrusts the most. They rush in to save Albert, while the Count reveals himself to Luigi Vampa as Gankutsuou, King of the Cavern, before killing Vampa. Albert is saved and enamored of the girl who at first seduced him—Peppo (who, it later turns out, is a boy). When Albert tries to make light of almost having been killed, Franz slaps him. They decide to return to Paris early, promising the Count an introduction to society when he arrives in May. Franz and Albert make amends, and the Count continues to ominously obsess over a picture of a man and woman on their wedding day.~ Well this is certainly suspicious. Albert is kidnapped and the only person with the immediate resources to save him is the Count of Monte Cristo. Also of note is the Count revealing the other half of his personality this episode, the very evil and calculating Gankutsuou, which seemed to strike fear into Luigi Vampa’s heart. This is a major puzzle piece, though we don’t know enough about the Count’s “revenge” to comment much upon it. Albert seems completely in the Count’s clutches by now, though he finally stopped being a jerk long enough to thank Franz. Speaking of Franz, I don’t think it’s too early to say that he either really really cares about Albert as a friend…or he may feel something deeper. They’ve dropped all kinds of hints about it, but his facial expressions and such really give him away (not that it isn’t done subtly). Their childhood dialogue is telling: “Who do you like, Franz? At least give me a hint.” “You wouldn’t understand, Albert.” And even the fact that Franz slapped him. Albert tried to shrug off the incident but Franz had clearly been terrified. The act of slapping is a very womanly gesture—why not punch him? To me, these details are excellent, and I didn’t pick them up until the second time around. The title in this episode obviously refers literally to Luigi Vampa’s time constraint before killing Albert; but I wonder if it doesn’t have a more metaphorical meaning. Thoughts? Episode 3: 5/22 Stormy Summary ~Albert is in Paris on May twenty-second, the day of the Count’s arrival. He goes out for a drive with his fiancée, Eugenie Danglars, Franz and his new fiancée Valentine de Villefort, high-powered official Lucien Debray, newcomer soldier Maximilien Morrel, and reporter Beauchamp (also there’s a bespectacled character who won’t really matter in the long run). They enjoy their picnic but then it begins to rain, and the ladies take their leave while the gentlemen congregate at Albert’s home to welcome the Count. They are skeptical until the Count actually arrives and holds his own, playing a delicate verbal game of cat and mouse. Later, Lucien, Franz, Morrell, and Beauchamp discover that both the photos and voice recordings Beauchamp took have been somehow tampered with. Meanwhile, the Count first admires a portrait of Albert’s mother, Mercedes, and then a war portrait in Albert’s father’s collection. The Count is invited to stay for dinner, and is visibly stirred by Mercedes and her husband, Fernand.~ Biggest piece of information is that the Count is here for vengeance, and Albert’s family is somehow linked to this. He was especially arrested by the painting of Mercedes in Marseilles. There were more homages to the book now that we’ve entered Paris, and the young aristocracy is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to narrating the complicated inter-family politics. We got a wealth of new characters in this episode which only brought to mind for me how impossible the novel is to navigate in terms of relationships. Luckily, this series cuts out quite a bit and makes the going slightly easier. I also liked a lot of the Count’s references to “sailing the galaxy” since he was a sailor in the book. Eugenie already alluded to feeling trapped, while Valentine is very quiet and sweet as far as we know. Beauchamp is a typical reporter, while Lucien has already revealed himself to be a classist, arrogant, narcissistic member of the aristocracy. Morrel’s infatuation with Valentine will become important later. The backgrounds really bring this series to life. Check out the contrast between the "haves" (plays like a modern surrealist painting) and the "have-nots" (plays like an abandoned urban wasteland) in this episode: 
The Count has a wonderful monologue—I can’t remember if it’s taken from the book. He’s with a beautiful woman, as Albert refers to her, whom we will learn more about soon (she plays her largest role more towards the end of the series). So for now, this show is a mystery, and the looming questions are: who is Edmond? And how are the Count’s revenge and Albert’s family connected? Also, pay attention to Albert’s dreams. They’re often prophetic, including the one at the beginning of this episode. The title of this episode reads like an epistolary entry. Me gusta. Episode 4: A Mother’s Secrets Summary ~The Count stays for dinner with Albert and his parents, eating food for the first time in the series to please Mercedes. After unsettling the couple by asking if they are from Marseilles, a place now considered vile, the Count flatters Fernand and makes an admirable impression. Before he leaves he converses with Mercedes alone on the balcony, causing rumors of an affair to fly among the servants (including Peppo, who’s been hired in Albert’s household). While the Count is far away, visiting his father’s grave, we see Albert spy his mother alone, staring at the photo of a young man who is not Fernand. While awaiting the arrival of Albert, Franz, Morrel, and Beauchamp, the Count converses with his woman and mentions being thrown out of the Chateau d’If, a prison, in the distant past. When Albert and co. arrive, they are thoroughly impressed by the Count’s residence of solid gold. Albert recognizes a faux-landscape from his mother’s portrait in Marseilles—yet another clue linking the Count to the Morcerf family and Marseilles. The Count presents Albert with a sword as a present.~ First of all, the writing is just superb—even the soup becomes a metaphor for “something fleeting the Count wished to taste again.” Watching this for a second time it’s evident just how ironic the Count at the Morcerf’s dinner table, pushing all their buttons, is. But I can’t say more! Even his conversation with Mercedes is wonderful dramatic irony for those who know the history. Again, pay attention to Albert’s dreams. They aren’t there just to show his worries and fears. His fashion sense in this episode was about the only comic relief we got, though I did enjoy the Count calling him Sir Pirate. The Count’s conversation with his woman (they haven’t told us yet, but her name is Haydee) was interesting, as well. When Haydee says she will follow him even if it’s to ruin, he claims emphatically that he is not the one who will be ruined. She simply stares at him, and this chink in the armor is the first to suggest that perhaps the Count is not infallible, after all. The Count shows his malicious side before handing the sword over to Albert, but plays it off as a game. He finally achieves the speechlessness he’s been trying to incur with his theatrics in the notables of Parisian society via his house, which is breathtaking (<---I couldn't resist, I love that design of the "false sky"). You really have to hand it to people who supervised backgrounds—designs like this are aesthetically pleasing, period. Title seems fairly literal in this episode. All in all, I have to say I’ve been impressed with the English voice cast so far, although JYB’s Midwestern accent is very jarring on the face of a young Parisian aristocrat. The stand-out performances are the Count (what 's with the Count and Le Comte listed as separate voices? I'm assuming one is for the narrator and the other the Count himself? Who plays the actual Count--Russell Wait or Taylor Henry?), and Ethan Murray as Franz. On a technical note, would anyone mind pming me how to link to a specific post in a thread for indexing purposes? |
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JacobC
ANN Past Staff
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Hm, I have yet to rewatch the series...
 ...so I won't post my page-a-ma-whatsits of thoughts just yet, but I will respond to rc's (excellent) post, I guess.
Indeed. It becomes more evident later, but the Count had done his research on Albert and his family. Research alone won't tell him how to make Albert putty in his hands, though, and despite having only known him for a few hours over dinner, he's figured out exactly what Albert craves: freedom, passion, the power of will. Albert came to Luna to...okay, lose his virginity, but that's just a symbol of those aforementioned traits. The Count in all his exotic confidence, knowledge, and passion, offers him some of that through the card game, and Albert foolishly takes the bait. You have to wonder if the Count invited both Albert and Franz to dinner to decide which one he could target. In the end, of course, Albert is the one he'll have to befriend on a deeper level...Albert, being needy and naive, sadly makes this very easy.
Actually, most if not ALL of the young characters are very distrustful of the Count, except for Albert, in this story. It's the adults who are all hornswoggled. In the novel, this is also the case, except that Franz is initially impressed by the Count along with Albert, but in the novel, Franz is a non-character. He pretty much disappears after the Roman carnival. (Which is...Mardi Gras, right? I don't know that it's explicitly called that in the book, or when that name for it came about...same kinda party though! Woo hoo!  )
Beyond that, though, Franz is also hands-down my favorite character in this retelling, and probably out of all anime too. Bah, I can't say why for spoilers, but his admirable traits are already making themselves known, and I like the stubborn, upstanding ones with a little mischief in them. Franz is like that. (Vash, Hughes, Onizuka...)
Ooh, I don't know that I would call it womanly. The big cliche with portraying...uh...is it REALLY a spoiler? Come on, it's obvious now. The big cliche with portraying homosexual love in fiction is to make the one bearing the affection "effeminate." Franz is not effeminate, in fact it's pretty obvious that he's more masculine than Albert. He's assertive, well-established as a matured adult aristocrat, (not a trait of the petulant Albert, Valentine, Eugenie, or even Maximilien) and he's had several women (this is more obvious later). Regardless, he seems very deeply in love with Albert...uh...by the eros definition. But you don't think "that was womany" every time you see a man slap another man in an anime, unless it's done in an exaggeratedly gay fashion. Unless it's repetitive and abusive, a slap is symbolically different from a punch not necessarily in that it's more feminine, but in that it conveys that a character is being hurt by someone they care about. A punch can get this across too, but you may notice it's a softer, less direct hook punch, and it's just once. If they were angry or hurt by someone they detest, it's usually a straight-armed punch and repeated over and over. Regardless, the bigger the arc and the softer the hit, the more it communicates sorrow rather than anger, and affection for the target rather than hatred. Maybe that's a more feminine sentiment, but it can be committed by completely straight men, too. The point is the concern and affection inherent in the reprimand, not the "womaniness" of it. Franz is far more butch than Albert, but it doesn't mean he can't have feelings for him. (On that note, I find it interesting that Franz lost his father at an early age and found a substitute for that familial presence in Albert. After this, it seems like engagement and courtship with ladies has been forced on him for many years leading up to his introduction. This is established very early on in the story, and I wonder if the writers were using it as a rationale for Franz's sexual feelings for Albert.) That's why this anime is my favorite portrayal of same-sex love themes. None of that insultingly provocative, cliche yaoi crap where it's a "sex story" rather than a "love story." Isn't love supposed to be more about feeling deeply for someone else's well-being above your own, instead of depending on and lusting after them to validate yourself like yaoi, or...even that Twilight garbage? (Well, that and it's clearly one-sided, so it's about an unrequited love, or a deep agape-like friendship that Franz wishes could be more. So I guess they can't quite be compared.)
Speaking of Twilight, (but not actually speaking at all because it sucks, pun intended,) the Count's vampiric nature is not an invention of this more fantasy-esque anime. Nope, it's right there in the novel, several times, that the Count becomes more and more like a pale, intense, vampire shell as his plot wears on. ...and Albert's assorted nightmares are the best indicator of this. Consciously, Albert doesn't think the Count is a vampire or anything, but it gets buried deep into his subconscious. Albert may be overly trusting and naive but he's not stupid. The Count does scare him, and the classical definition of a vampire is a symbol of perfect charisma and irresistible temptation hiding an ecstatic and violent death for the victim (or undeath, the loss of one's soul in pursuit of pleasure.) Twilight ruins this with its whorey, shallow exploration of sparkly lizard people that Meyer calls "vampires," but most other great vampire fiction and even sophomoric anime like Vampire Knight gets the mythos right. As does Gankutsuou. The Count probably won't be sucking anybody's blood, but Albert, being a smart young lad, knows he's getting sucked in by the Count's allure and power over him. He has everything Albert wants, and Albert values his friendship, but...there's something dark about their relationship. The Count knows more than him about everything, seems to be everywhere he turns, and has already convinced him to do some horrible things. If only Albert's subconscious could affect his stubbornness in real life, things might have gone differently. But the Count's allure is powerful, and a taste of danger just makes him all the more enticing to the cloystered "maiden" in question, Albert. The best way to look at their relationship really is that of a spirited young virgin in the arms of king Dracula, if you'll indulge a metaphor that yields some weird imagery. (Yup, that's official art.) Vampires being symbols of sexual temptation is also pretty relevant here, but I'll hold off on that until later. This series, ah, likes to play with gender roles a little, as you may have already noticed.
I would if this didn't pop into my head every time I watch now. *shakes fist*
As we'll see much later, I think the Count does underestimate Albert in this regard. I think he honestly thinks Albert is stupid, and can get away with this assumption because Albert is so utterly in love with him (no, not in THAT way...yet...) This little "fake attack" is a good indicator of that. He gets to unleash his hidden malice on Albert for just a second (aaaah, that must have felt good,) and can play it off as a joke. I think it does bother Albert, but the fact that the Count was willing to bare his fangs (yay another pun) that much and think there would be no consequence indicates that he does not have much respect for the young aristocrat at all...yet.
Um, the ANN entry for this show is really screwed up because there was an Animax dub and...I don't know, it's totally different. The Bang Zoom! one has a few actors in there correctly, but most of them are totally off. Johnny Yong Bosch isn't on there at all. The voice of the Count is actually Jamieson Price but I only know this because his voice is REALLY unmistakable. It's not on the ANN entry at all. The reason two actors are listed, I assume, is because one is Gankutsuou and one is the Count. Either way it's Animax. The voice for Gankutsuou in the Bang Zoom! dub I can't find at all...no idea who it is (and do not care because his voice pisses me off in the dub. I hate it. SPEAK FRENCH! FRENCH, DARN IT! You don't sound scary in English, you sound bored!) According to Wikipedia, actually, the voice for Franz is Ezra Weisz, but I think Ethan Murray was his non-union name or whatever they call those aliases. Speaking of which, I'll get this rant out of the way...I'm a dubbie 99% of the time, but...*shrugs* I really think the Japanese version eats the dub alive for this particular show. Even if the dub isn't bad in the least, Jouji Nakata and Jun Fukuyama just make the sub incredible while the dub just kinda "exists," honestly. I think it's really flat with the exception of about 5 roles. One good reason to watch the dub is to keep your eyes on the visuals, though. So I won't grumble...too much...at folks watching the dub here.  I'm just too much of a fangirl, I guess. But I watched the dub first, and would therefore be biased toward it normally...and the Japanese is SOOOO much better.
... I guess because I've also read the book ninety-bajillion times, my actual "rewatch" post will mainly compare and contrast the two and hypothesize on why what changes were made for this version. Pretty much all the changes that were made revolve around one idea: the shift from a revenge story with the Count at the center to a coming-of-age story with Albert at the center. Last edited by JacobC on Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:29 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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darkhappy1
 Posts: 495 Location: PA |
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Well, at least you kicked it off! I would've forgotten about the summaries and titles anyway.
So, now that I've read the book right after I watched Gankutsuou the first time and switched to Japanese with subtitles for this rewatch, I think I'm picking up quite alot now... Well, here I go: Episode 1 The title, when correlating to only this episode, refers to the Count and Albert meeting as Albert's trip to Luna ends. I'm not sure exactly sure how the connections from this title to the phrase can end up being spoilery, so I guess it'd be helpful if we can come back to this later. Although this may just be me overcomplicating everything, inserting meaning behind every shot, the camera angles help in understanding what's happening. Take, for instance, the execution scene. You see the Count and Albert in one shot, and Franz is in a separate shot. Franz can't break into Albert's space. The Count is the only other person near Albert while he's making the decision. Also, when the Count is monologuing about youth and put his hands near a painting on the wall, he only takes up a small portion of the screen. Symbolic? Oh and, something amusing: as Albert is bowing down to the Countess (aka Franz's friend that I forgot the name of), we get to see some of her cleavage. Obviously in Albert's point of view. Heh heh. It's funny how quickly the pardon went from the Count to the little guy to the crowd. It took, like, seconds! I mean, they were just about to kill the guy once Albert flipped the card. Surely, it wouldn't be so quick... Well, the preparation might just've been in line with decision so that they can make it more dramatic and heart-racing, even if it isn't exactly in line with the timeline.. Episode 2 This is when we start to hear the voice after the opening song. It seem to give more insight to what's happening in the Count(?)'s point of view. Let's just assume this voice is the Count... Yeah. His friend is himself.  Apparently, his friend is saying that "this shall be the prelude to my vengeance." This friend sounds like the Count himself, doesn't it? This Count says that the soul he met (Albert) is immature, but too young and beautiful. "It is that alone which gives me cause for fear." Confliction?
The title for this episode might be hinting that what is happening is before the Count (Until the Sun) truly wreaks havoc in Paris (Rises Over the Moon). Other than the motherly affection of Franz and the Count being very very creepy, I can't really say that much about this episode not already stated by rainbowcourage. Episode 3 The voice now contemplates about the meaning of life. Or not. But the power of friendship and the human heart are close topics, right? *sigh* "Nothing is more inconstant than the human heart." That's what the voice's friend says as he talks about friendship. Heh heh. A bit sensitive there, don'tcha think? So we get introduced to Albert's band of friends. What an interesting array of characters. Eugenie and Albert don't seem to like their engagement. Franz doesn't seem very into Valentine either. Too bad for Valentine. Too bad for Maxamillien too, because Valentine didn't have the luminescent blush he had when they met each other. Beauchamp and Lucien don't seem quite trustworthy already, but I suppose that can be discussed later. The bespectacled friend, Renaud, only helps the characters out. He'll be as fleshed out as a burnt piece of wood stolen from a fireplace. Heh. I guess, being the type of guy he is and in this large of a cast, expecting him to be really fleshed out and deep isn't quite a reasonable expectation. Peppo's joined the staff! That's a nice deviation from the book, because she was only mentioned three times, at most. Cute character too. Unfortunately, that might make the web of relationships a little more complicated. Oh well. Albert notices her during the meeting with the Count. Coincidence? Well, that's what she said. The Count doesn't have everything planned out either, so it couldn't be intentional! Not at all. Never. Impossible. The Count's disappearance in the photographs and recordings is something I didn't fully understand and had to infer on my own. Hopefully I'll find out more about this to make sure what I thought was correct. Episode 4 Emotions leaking out as the reunion comes near... That's very helpful for the people who don't even know the bonds between characters. Moving on... The title... Yeah. It should explain itself. Moving on, again. There was a certain scene in the book regarding grapes and enemies. "One does not eat at their enemies' house." Or something like that. Unfortunately, that doesn't fully come through in the dinner between the Count and the Morcerf family. Good thing for Mercedes, though, or else she'd come off as oversensitive. In episode 4, no less. No, we can't do that to dear Mercedes. It's only episode 4! We gotta have the Count win some trust first before chaos can spread out! At least they talked about grapes. Some focus given to his pills again. Dang, I wish I had Albert's dreams. Then I'd be able to win some money. Or be crying my eyes out. Or screaming in my sleep... Yeah. The Count has a magnificent home, and Franz is still suspicious. Not exactly surprising. Why were the people that came chosen to come though? To put to rest any doubts about his wealth? Heh heh. Overall This show is as breathtaking as when I first watched it. The writing is spendid, the music is wonderful, and the visuals are magnificent. However, although I agree with rainbowcourage regarding the dub, it pales in comparison to the Japanese dub. I changed between English and Japanese occasionally by pressing audio and subtitles buttons while the episode continued playing, and the Japanese just make it all the more dramatic. Which is a good thing, for a show like this. I usually listen to dubs for convenience sake, but I think this little experiment has made me side with the Japanese dub. I won't care about my worsening eyesight, I'll continue reading the subtitles. Hmph. |
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Oh god, please don't think anyone else has to do this. Feel free to comment on the titles if you wish; I'm simply providing summaries for every episode so that they jog people's memories--people who might not post right after they watch, or people dropping in who aren't necessarily rewatching the show.
That scene is really pivotal, and I think you're right on with this. Franz's reaction brings gravity to the situation as he pleads with Albert; looking from the outside in it's difficult to understand perhaps the kind of mental effect such a decision will have on Albert, but Franz sees it clearly and he wants to keep Albert from "the dark side."
Love Peppo and how (s)he messes with Albert constantly and plays mind games with him. The puppet was particularly creepy. I think the photographs thing is just to show how efficient and secret the Count is--he can achieve anything almost supernaturally, and he does that both to protect his identity and to keep the air of mystery around him in Paris.
I watched this the first time through in Japanese, but I think it didn't leave an impression because I was trying really hard to follow the story on top of the art  . That's mainly why I'm watching the dub now (though I do love Jun Fukuyama)--plus I was curious about how the script would sound, and whoever adapted it did a really good job. I enjoyed Peppo's "I specialize in getting into drawers" pun.
Ahem, and now...
I guess I'll elaborate--I don't think of the slap as effeminiate because of homosexual stereotypes, but rather in the larger context of what a slap usually means, and the intent behind this particular one. The scene, to me, feels almost like a lover's spat, even if Albert isn't consciously aware of the tension. I can try to pinpoint why I get that feeling. Franz is masculine in one sense, but he's also a worrywort when it comes to Albert (and for good reason). Albert literally asks at one point if Franz thinks he's his girlfriend or mother (Albert also has his mother's sexy portrait hanging in his room...Oedipus complex anyone? ).
In anime I can't really think of another instance where a slap held the same kind of meaning as it does here between two men (I can't think of many slaps between men, period). The slap is out of love, concern, fear for Albert's life; most slaps between men in anime are to "snap someone out of it"--honestly, I can't think of a different circumstance. I agree with you about the portrayal of same-sex love here, and part of why I love this scene is how it takes something stereotypical like a slap to the face, and completely turns it on its head. It wasn't the "stereotypically gay" thing that makes me feel the gesture was womanly--it was the atypical sentiment behind it. A slap is often something I associate with a woman chiding a man for foolishness, much in the same sense as it's used here. Between men, it's an entirely different story. This brings up a couple more points I wanted to comment on at some point or another, anyway. The first is homosexuality--I find it interesting that the creators transferred Eugenie's homosexuality in the book to other characters like Franz and Peppo, even incorporating her cross-dressing in the latter (edit: Peppo [Beppo?] was a crossdresser in the book?). Interesting way to honor the original, if that was its intent. And then there's unrequited love, which crops up everywhere. Franz for Albert, Peppo for Albert, Haydee for the Count (well it's up for debate how much he loves her), and a couple other spoiler couples. Why can't everyone just be happy, damnit?! At least a few people will be  And I'll leave it at that.
Uh..."I'll suck your blood. And then rape you!!" Icky. |
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OldCharlieStoletheHandle
 Posts: 1288 Location: Mastic Beach, NY |
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I just finished the first 4 episodes and it's a bit late so I just wanted to add a few impressions.
To clarify, I am watching this for the first time and have not read the original novel but I am somewhat familiar with the basic story. First, on the "slapping" scene with Franz and Albert, this is something I see often in anime, where one member of a pair of friends/lovers is being a bit clueless and inconsiderate to the other; as expected, Albert does thank Franz later and things seem to be patched up between them. On a larger note, I can't help thinking that part of the Count's master plan may be to "put the poison in" between Albert and Franz (and perhaps his other friends as well), creating discord and confusion in Albert's life as one step in his plan. As for the style of the show, it sometimes goes over the top (the Count's entrance in episode 3 was a bit much) but I'm getting used to it, though I can see how some viewers might find it a bit distracting from the story. |
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darkhappy1
Posts: 495 Location: PA |
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Eugenie's homosexuality would've made Albert's story all the more depressing in the romance department, which is already sad enough. Also, having her teacher introduced and run away with her would've made part of the story... Eugenie-centric. This show isn't as omniscient as the book. Her teacher barely had any connections to anyone other than the Danglars, and their interactions would've felt out of place and odd. Getting the teacher out of the story made the web of relationships less complicated, if only a little. This show likes tackling ideas about different kinds of love though, so having homosexuality stay in isn't very surprising. And yes, Beppo was a crossdresser in the book. I'm 96% sure of that. |
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Prede
Posts: 388 |
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I'll comment more on this later (just bought the series on DVD. Been wanting to buy it for awhile now) and I just watched the first 2 episodes. But can you guys be sure not to spoil anything past where your watching? I've been reading your posts and I've seen up to episode 8 already (awhile ago) and I really know nothing of any homosexual relationships so far. (Well I know about what the deal is with Peppo but that's not what you guys were talking about). So...I'm assumeing that comes up later or something? If so please don't mention it until we get there lol. This is still kind of my first time watching it. I'd like to watch this as un-spoiled as possible.
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Actually, we haven't spoiled a thing. The Eugenie thing is a non-spoiler because we were talking about what happened in the book, not the series. The only thing we've possibly spoiled in that way is that Eugenie is not a lesbian in the series, so I hope you didn't get your hopes too high for that one .
As for Franz, we've only cited examples from the first four episodes which heavily imply his feelings for Albert (his overprotectiveness, that short childhood dialogue, how his eyes are really expressive when Albert thanks him, etc). At this point it's no longer a spoiler. And it doesn't get much more overt, either (it's not like Franz ever has a huge love confession or some such nonsense). We're not "spoiling" so much as "pointing out." |
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arachneia
 Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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The crossdresser's name is Beppo. The book has another character named Peppino. Just pointing that out.
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DerekTheRed
Posts: 3544 Location: ::Points to hand:: |
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My background: I'm watching Gankutsuou for the first time, I read an abridged for children version of Monte Cristo waaaaaay back in like second or third grade, and I've seen at least 1 movie adaptation of Monte Cristo. That said, I have a quick question. Are we allowed to know certain (probably) critical things about the book version of Edmond Dantes for discussion here? It's sort of common knowledge. Kind of like everybody knows who the three musketeers are even if they haven't read the book, right?
I think I might be reading too far into the character's clothes. For instance, Franz's patterns are usually floral/baroque prints, and well, yeah... I don't know exactly how to describe it, but it's similar to old lady wall paper. In episode 3, Beauchamp's print looks like newspaper articles, and he's a reporter. Albert's prints are usually made up of straight lines. He has checkers on Luna, and in episode 3 he has that weird zigzag thing going on. Maybe this alludes to him not being able to fit in with his surroundings? Luigi Vampa and some of his crew have little skull caricatures on their clothes. The Count's lackeys have prints that make me think of city night life, which makes them feel like street thugs. The Count's hair print, and everything about the woman who accompanied him the the opera look very celestial. Mercedes' prints look airy and sky like, like she's been elevated. And I don't know what to make of it, but I thought it was funny that the prisoner that Albert ended up freeing had frogs all over his street clothes. Overall, I think I know the ending from knowing the story previously, so as I watch this I'm trying to decide what has been changed and if the ending will be different. |
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