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Best Team/Organization Tournament: Post-Mortem


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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:13 am Reply with quote
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
I believe the "no summer '09" series rule is that during the nominations phase, there is not enough information available as to justify the groups inclusion, not that current events are precluded from voting consideration.


And anyway, Cross Game is a spring Anime, which means it can still be included. Now, the entire first season hasn't finished yet, but as Key pointed out all the relevant episodes regarding the Seishu Prefab Team have already been aired, so I have no problem with an exception being made for them.
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sailorsarah08



Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Houston, Texas
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:21 am Reply with quote
In my defense I have not seen the second season of MoHS save for the first episode spoiler[ in which Nagato totally took one for the team by keeping frozen bodies in her apartment for three years. ] The team was still succesful in the end of the first season.

Team Rocket was only succesful as a deus ex machina. They saved the world but that was only after failing their first goal. They had a huge amount of episodes and they couldn't get Pikachu once. I don't see Team Rocket unified as a team. Their boss was pretty awful and kept sending the same failures to do the job over and over. I could see the argument for Jessie James and Meowth but not the whole team. They simply aren't together enough. They don't have a lot of communication with their leader nor do we see the leader except for like ten times. They didn't do as well as the SOS Brigade.
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Dorcas_Aurelia



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
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Location: Philly
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:33 am Reply with quote
sailorsarah08 wrote:
The team was still succesful in the end of the first season.

But is their success due to their teamwork? In most situations, it came from Yuki saving the day by herself. The big success came in a situation where only Kyon was actually able to do anything, with the slight teamwork of Mikuru and Yuki providing him with vague hints.
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egoist



Joined: 20 Jun 2008
Posts: 7762
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:45 am Reply with quote
Never thought I'd be defending SOS brigade, but oh well...
Everyone who's been changing their votes lately are letting themselves being talked into.

Team Rocket. As far as I can remember their members were always fighting and not cooperating, their boss was always in the shadows and over all, they were a total failure as to completing their goals.

SOS brigade. A selfish leader, always dragging the members around and giving orders. But whoever said the leader had to be kind? They got the job done in season 1, which was saving the world, and then again by the end of "endless eight".
But this team has two meanings and people are fighting over it.
#1 - Originally created to protect the world and not let it become unstable by sucking up to Haruhi. (they've been quite successful at this so far)
#2 - A school club which is often dragged by Haruhi against their wishes.

Whoever made the guide entry, made it clear the group's goals were #2.
Quickly question: Would an alien, a time traveler, an esper and a person who hates to be there be in that group for #2?

But for me it's clear SOS brigade exists for #1, the members make the group after all.

For me it ends here, I won't say any further since both teams are just awful.
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mow123



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 339
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:58 am Reply with quote
egoist wrote:
Never thought I'd be defending SOS brigade, but oh well...
Everyone who's been changing their votes lately are letting themselves being talked into.

Team Rocket. As far as I can remember their members were always fighting and not cooperating, their boss was always in the shadows and over all, they were a total failure as to completing their goals.

SOS brigade. A selfish leader, always dragging the members around and giving orders. But whoever said the leader had to be kind? They got the job done in season 1, which was saving the world, and then again by the end of "endless eight".
But this team has two meanings and people are fighting over it.
#1 - Originally created to protect the world and not let it become unstable by sucking up to Haruhi. (they've been quite successful at this so far)
#2 - A school club which is often dragged by Haruhi against their wishes.

Whoever made the guide entry, made it clear the group's goals were #2.
Quickly question: Would an alien, a time traveler, an esper and a person who hates to be there be in that group for #2?

But for me it's clear SOS brigade exists for #1, the members make the group after all.

For me it ends here, I won't say any further since both teams are just awful.


SOS's core mission was neither #1 or #2, but to serve as a club to uncover the supernatural and extraordinary. This group never existed for #1 and Haruhi is far too selfish to probably even care about it. Yuki and Kyon ended up fixing the mess that Haruhi created, which as you describe almost destroyed the world.

#2 ends up being what the club's purpose inevitably becomes. According to some the most common theories of fandom, the group stays together as it is because Haruhi wishes it to be that way -- by the same mark this is also what drew the members of the club together. To say the club worked together to save the world, at least to me seems a little far-fetched, but I would be interested to see what others posters think.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:02 am Reply with quote
egoist wrote:
Everyone who's been changing their votes lately are letting themselves being talked into.


Maybe we're being persuaded by rational arguments rather than sticking with a slavish adherence to whichever group we like the most or are better familiar with?

egoist wrote:
SOS brigade. A selfish leader, always dragging the members around and giving orders. But whoever said the leader had to be kind? They got the job done in season 1, which was saving the world, and then again by the end of "endless eight".


Kyon spoiler[remembering to do his homework] is not in any definition I've ever seen of "saving the world".

The SOS Brigade's Exalted Leader still hasn't found a single instance of Aliens, Time Travelers or ESPers, and therefore to her the club still hasn't done what it was created to do.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:43 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
The SOS Brigade's Exalted Leader still hasn't found a single instance of Aliens, Time Travelers or ESPers, and therefore to her the club still hasn't done what it was created to do.


When judging the SOS Brigade, though, there's a total disconnect between "stated intent" and "actual functional intent" (as there often is in many organizations). In terms of functional intent - i.e. keeping Haruhi under observation and discouraging her from totally recreating the world - the team has been successful.

Are they one of the greatest examples of teamwork in this tournament? Hell, no. Do they have interesting group dynamics? Definitely. Do they have a group identity? Whether they like it or not, they are widely considered Haruhi's gang, and that is a sense of identity. Do they suit and support the tone and themes of their series? Absolutely.

Now, the only question that should be considered here is whether or not they make a good enough group to beat Team Rocket - and the voting is still very close on that.
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egoist



Joined: 20 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:28 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Kyon spoiler[remembering to do his homework] is not in any definition I've ever seen of "saving the world".

The SOS Brigade's Exalted Leader still hasn't found a single instance of Aliens, Time Travelers or ESPers, and therefore to her the club still hasn't done what it was created to do.


Had you read what I said you'd have noticed:
Quote:
Quickly question: Would an alien, a time traveler, an esper and a person who hates to be there be in that group for #2?

Quote:
#2 - A school club which is often dragged by Haruhi against their wishes.


and just like Key already stated:

Quote:
In terms of functional intent - i.e. keeping Haruhi under observation and discouraging her from totally recreating the world - the team has been successful.


It's clear the only person considering that group's goal to be finding ghost, esper and whatever else is Haruhi.

The group's real intent just like Key said, has been successful so far.

In the end SOS brigade and Team Rocket are both just awful, but I don't think SOS brigade sucked so much to actually lose for Team Rocket.
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Key
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:13 pm Reply with quote
I'm getting no response about this in the other thread, and time is now of the essence, so I am now posting these requests here. All of the following are needed ASAP for Group B Guide entries - preferably yet tonight, absolutely by about 9 p.m. EST (GMT-5) Monday. If these requests are not met then the involved entries either won't have pictures in their Guide entries or won't have an entry, period:

*Black Stones, NANA - I have the write-up for them but I need a pic, preferably a screen shot of them performing in the anime. All of the pics I'm finding with an online search are either fan art or of the live-action version.

*Magic Knights, Magic Knights Rayearth - I have a pic for them but not a write-up, and I don't know the series well enough to give them a worthy entry.

*Tokyo Metro Police Special Vehicle Section 2, Patlabor - I have only seen the movies, so I would vastly prefer if someone more knowledgeable would step up and do this one.

If you can help out, please do NOT post pic/info/links here. Do it in the other thread or PM it to me.
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marie-antoinette



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 4136
Location: Ottawa, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:02 pm Reply with quote
egoist wrote:
Am I the only one with these thoughts or is it really suspicious to see someone voting in the tournament in their first post.


LOL, I didn't see this the first time.

You shouldn't be suspicious of this one because it's my former roommate who I made join the ANN forums specifically to take part in the tournament because I keep talking about them and figured it would be better if she knew what I was going on about.
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nightjuan



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1473
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:26 pm Reply with quote
I'm in a bit of a rush so I'll be going by guide entries and prior knowledge more than anything else, although I did skim through some posts related to relatively unknown groups.

Group A-1
Section 9, Ghost in the Shell franchise
vs.
Angel Brigade, Galaxy Angel franchise

Voting for Section 9.

Group A-2
Nadesico crew, Martian Successor Nadesico
vs.
HOLD/HOLY, sCRYed

Voting for Nadesico Crew.

Group A-3
Team Rocket, Pokemon franchise
vs.
SOS Brigade, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya

Voting for Team Rocket.

Group A-4
Six God-Generals, Tales of the Abyss
vs.
Team Urameshi, Yu Yu Hakusho

Voting for Six God-Generals.

Group A-5
Shibuya Psychic Research, Ghost Hunt
vs.
Paper Sisters, R.O.D. TV

Voting for Paper Sisters.

Group A-6
Amaterasu crew, Starship Operators
vs.
Digidestined-Frontier group, Digimon Frontier

Voting for Amaterasu crew.

Group A-7
Magic User's Club, Magic User's Club
vs.
I-Jin, Read or Die OVA

Voting for Magic User's Club.

Group A-8
Kira Investigation Task Force, Death Note
vs.
Hellsing Organization, Hellsing franchise

Voting for Hellsing Organization.

Group A-9
Colonel Mustang’s squadron, Fullmetal Alchemist
vs.
Muroe Kendo Club, Bamboo Blade

Voting for Muroe Kendo Club.

Group A-10
NERV, Neon Genesis Evangelion
vs.
Blade Children, Spiral

Voting for NERV.

Group A-11
Seishu Prefab Team, Cross Game
vs.
Court Guard Squad 11, Bleach

Voting for Seishu Prefab Team.

Group A-12
Team Earth, Oban Star Racers
vs.
Le Secret du Roi, Le Chevalier d’Eon

Voting for Le Secret du Roi.

Group A-13
Trapnest, NANA
vs.
Tokko, Tokko

Voting for Tokko. Surprisingly enough.

Group A-14
The Academy Steel Angel Kurumi
vs.
Knight Sabers, Bubblegum Crisis franchise

Voting for Knight Sabers.

Group A-15
Odd Jobs Jin, Gintama (NOTE: originally “Yorozuya Gin-san Crew”)
vs.
Game Club, When They Cry/Higurashi no Naku Koroni franchise

Voting for Game Club.

Group A-16
Chronos, Black Cat
vs.
Soyokaze crew, The Irresponsible Captain Tylor

Voting for Soyokaze crew.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:17 pm Reply with quote
And with that I believe A-11 is tied. It sure was a long and hard-fought comeback. Now we just need one more vote for Seishu Prefab Team to nudge it over the line . . . (hint hint) . . .
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Olliff



Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 550
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:33 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
And with that I believe A-11 is tied. It sure was a long and hard-fought comeback. Now we just need one more vote for Seishu Prefab Team to nudge it over the line . . . (hint hint) . . .


I still have very mixed feelings about this team. On one hand, I have heard a bunch of good things about them, but nothing in enough detail or length to make a strong enough argument to change my mind since I haven't seen the series. There have been a bunch of votes without reasons --- but then again that seems to be the norm this round, which is to be expected. The only match-up that produced considerable discussion was the SOS vs Team Rocket match-up.

While to some extent, I understand why Key made an exception since the team has come and gone in the series, I'm hesitant about changing my vote because by your words it didn't technically finish it's first season, which by itself is one of Key's conditions for being eligible for this tournament. I know I'm being a bit of stickler for the rules, but I don't think an exception like this has been made before, and not that it is necessarily a bad thing, but a a part of the reason it was made was probably due to Key's strong level of support for this team.
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Key
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:07 pm Reply with quote
Olliff wrote:
While to some extent, I understand why Key made an exception since the team has come and gone in the series, but I'm also a little hesitant on changing my vote because by your words it didn't technically finish it's first season, which by itself is one of Key's conditions for being eligible for this tournament. I know I'm being a bit of stickler for the rules, but I don't think an exception like this has been made before, and not that it is necessarily a bad thing, but a a part of the reason it was made was probably due to Key's strong level of support for this team.


The issue here, I think, is the definition of a season. For purposes of this tournament I am defining "finishing a season" as one Japanese TV season - i.e. 13 weeks. Cross Game did meet that requirement at the beginning of the nomination phase, as did the also-still-ongoing Valkyria Chronicles. Thus there's no need to make an exception here.

And dtm42, I think you may have missed LydiaDianne's vote change in A-11. It wasn't even.

Anyway. . .

Round 1 Group A is now closed.

Results can be found here. Only two matches ended up being close: Team Rocket barely held on to stay ahead of the much-derided SOS Brigade by a slim margin of 20-16, while Seishu Prefab Team staged a dramatic come-from-behind charge to secure an even slimmer 19-17 win. None of the rest of the matches were closer than a 12-vote spread. 36 votes for the first round, while not a record, is nonetheless solid, though voting was unusually light on Monday.

Next round should be up momentarily.
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Key
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:07 pm Reply with quote
Round 1 Group B is now closed.

A new batch of match-ups is here for your consideration, with at least a couple of these looking very interesting indeed. What chaff will get blown away this time by the winds of voter whims?

Group B-1
Tank Police, New Dominion Tank Police
vs.
Seven Samurai, Samurai 7

Winner: Seven Samurai
Total: 23-9

Group B-2
Team Hei, Darker Than BLACK
vs.
Black Knights, Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion

Winner: Black Knights
Total: 20-12

Group B-3
Straw Hat Pirates, One Piece
vs.
French Guards Company B, The Rose of Versailles

Winner: Straw Hat Pirates
Total: 28-4

Group B-4
British Library Operations Division, Read or Die franchise
vs.
Velka-Type Knights, Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha A

Winner: British Library Ops
Total: 17-15

Group B-5
Tokyo Metropolitan Police Special Vehicles Section 2, Patlabor franchise
vs.
Shinsengumi, Peacemaker

Winner: PSV Section 2
Total: 18-14

Group B-6
Shinesmen, Shinesman Special Duty Combat Unit
vs.
Outlaw Star crew, Outlaw Star

Winner: Outlaw Star Crew
Total: 21-11

Group B-7
STN-J, Witch Hunter Robin
vs.
Parakiss Label, Paradise Kiss

Winner: Parakiss Label
Total: 21-11

Group B-8
Magic Knights, Magic Knight Rayearth
vs.
International Police Organization, Giant Robo

Winner: Magic Knights
Total: 21-11

Group B-9
State Section 3 (aka Pumpkin Scissors), Pumpkin Scissors
vs.
Special Services Division, Heat Guy J

Winner: State Section 3
Total: 23-9

Group B-10
Slayers team, Slayers franchise
vs.
Homonculi, Fullmetal Alchemist

Winner: Slayers team
Total: 19-13

Group B-11
Aria Company, ARIA franchise
vs.
Shibusen, Soul Eater

Winner: Shibusen
Total: 23-9

Group B-12
Hotel Moscow, Black Lagoon
vs.
Genshiken, Genshiken

Winner: Hotel Moscow
Total: 27-5

Group B-13
Cyborg Soldiers, Cyborg 009
vs.
Beck, BECK: Mongolian Chop Squad

Winner: Beck
Total: 17-15

Group B-14
Crescendolls, Interstalla 5555: The 5tory of the 5ecret 5tar 5ystem
vs.
Yamayurikai, Maria Watches Over Us franchise

Winner: Crescendolls
Total: 17-15

Group B-15
Skull Squadron, Super Dimensional Fortress Macross
vs.
Kamogawa Gym, Fighting Spirit

Winner: Skull Squadron
Total: 18-14

Group B-16
Black Stones, NANA
vs.
Gekkostate, Eureka 7

Winner: Gekkostate
Total: 20-12


Last edited by Key on Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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