Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation II
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niknasr
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I think it's interesting that Lilia the 2nd wife still faithful to greyrat family, I also think she will nurse Zenith even for foreseeable future when I don't think anyone gonna blame her if she just walk out. Maybe Paul isn't as bad a husband after all?
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LinkTSwordmaster
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This is pretty much where my thoughts are too. I have not seen any novels, I don't know what's coming up.... I'm pretty effing positive at this point they'll have Eris come in and she's already had his kid or something and that will toss another wrench into Rudy's relationship with Sylphie. I don't like how powerless the show is leaving the female cast. It's one of the things that gets annoying about Sword Art - that Kirito is The One, the Neo, and everyone has to sing his praises left and right. With Rudy having this really strong story with Sylphie, knowing her for so many years, they have this really compelling connection and story, but his "relationships" with Roxy and Eris feel straight up creepy. I feel like the show is bending over backwards to justify some weird underage shit, and then shove "wish-fulfillment" through the pipeline at the viewers just that Rudy gets to have his pick with all of the women he ever wanted. The Hitogami talking about taking one of the beast girls at the mage college for a wife really skeeved me out. Would it feel more even-handed if one of the female characters had a harem of guys? I cant say. I just cant help but watch the show and shake my head, that I cant think of any women that'd actually enjoy being in this sort of situation. I really liked the Polycule that Iron-Blodded Orphans did, the characters all cared for each other evenly and more or less ended up like "I guess through circumstance, we're a family now" - and it didn't feel skeevy. They made such a note to mention that Zenith is fit and healthy & not-braindead (just mind-wiped!) that I'm terrified they're gonna bend over backwards to either have some other female character transfer their consciousness into her body or some other such shenanigan, all just to bend over backwards and justify Rudy doing weird gropey junk to his otherworld mom. I think I'm gonna be taking a break from the show for a while - the storytelling is tops when it's not being horny, but none of the women seem to actually have any control in their lives unless Rudy hands it out, and I have no interest to see what sort of excuse the show is giving Rudy (mentally over 40) for feeling up characters he's seen when they were children. |
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Jabootu
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Gamen, responding to my question of what's normal:
That's what's normal in our country, in our time period, in our world. It surely isn't normal for most of human history across the globe, much less in another world. If you're asking me how'd I'd approach romance in my own life, yes, definitely I'm on the same page with you. This is a world of arranged political marriages and literally different races (unlike ours where there aren't really "races"). People complain that Eris slept with Rudy when she was a girl. She wasn't though. She was an acknowledged warrior who had just spent three years fighting monsters and such just to stay alive. She was a member of a powerful political family that she knew since she was a tot made it likely that she'd be part of an arranged marriage. Indeed, she would have been trained for such a thing. Comparing her to a typical junior high schooler in our society is...off the mark. The reason we read science fiction and fantasy is to visit other worlds (this is true even of novels set in the past). Those worlds perforce are going to be different than our own. And again, that's the joy of the thing. So when you use the word "normal" you have to use in the context of the world we're visiting, not our own. MFrontier wrote:
We'll see, but I would be surprised if that's the case. The entire series is about the decisions Rudy makes and the consequences that ensue. We're not exactly talking In Another World with a Smartphone (or whatever it was) here. If nothing else, again, I can't see how his showing up with Roxy doesn't further poison his relationship with Norn, since she earlier hated the fact that he was Sylphy when he had earlier been with Eris. Side note: Is the root of Norn's hostile relationship with Aisha due to the fact that she can't square her devotion to Paul with his real-life bad traits? This might be why she's so pissed about Rudy's having been involved with more than one girl. Her love of her father doesn't allow for her to acknowledge his bad acts, so she strikes out more viciously when somebody else does the same things. She seems to have been making peace with both Rudy and Aisha before he left, but his coming back with Roxy on top of learning of Paul's death (while, in a very real way, failing to save her mother)...that seems an explosive situation. Rudy has always revered Roxy (and vice versa) and considering how compatible they are it was inevitable they'd fall in love with each other after meeting up again as adults. And maybe this is head canon, but I've felt for a while now that the whole "Roxy's Panties" and "goddess" thing were more of a schtick or inside joke Rudy was pursuing, albeit to occasionally manic effect at times. Certainly it's been a long way since we've seen him attach any evidently sexual significance to them. However, it remains the fact that Roxy was the first person he trusted enough to be able to start breaking free of the trauma of his prior life. I would certainly say he's always revered her, if not actually "worshipped" her. I'd like to point out that we are early days in Rudy's second life. I have purposely closed off knowing anything about the novels, but my impression is that we follow Rudy through a long life ending with him as an old man. If that's true, let's remember that consequences can extend a long time. It might be that resentments about Rudy's various marriages (again, I can't see him not getting together with Eris when they meet back up, unless Eris refuses to share him) cause dissension between his various children and grandchildren. Even if Rudy seems to get out (comparatively) scot free in the present, it's entirely possible that dire ramifications will be felt decades in the future. That's the kind of series this is. I doubt the final episode will have time to deal with it. However, considering how pissed / sad Linia and Pursena were when Rudy married Sylphy, I can't imagine they'll be any more pleased that they weren't even his second choice. I don't expect this to be a whole plot thing, but it would be consistent with the trio's history so far. |
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Gamen
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Few points 1) But courtship has been "normal" for centuries or longer, depending on how loosely you define it. More importantly, it's what's normal when the individuals are the ones pursuing marriage, not their parents, and that's what we're seeing in Mushoku Tensei with adults simply moving in together and declaring themselves married. (I would assume there actually is still an informal arranged marriage part of this as well i.e. if you want your parents' help buying/building a house you marry who they say... but that's in part true even in modern times.) 2) Aristocratic marriages never exemplify what's normal. By definition, aristocrats are always a minority, and what shenanigans they get up to do not tell us how normal peasants go about their business. 3) While yes romance is a relatively modern invention, that doesn't mean feelings weren't taken into account when parents were arranging marriages. The goal was to pair people up into stable and successful marriages that would strengthen the ties between families that could used to get help during lean times. Your parents were watching who you got along with to figure out who would be a good match. Loosely speaking this kind of fits under what I'm calling "normal", people having time to get to know one another before marriage and kids. (of course part of this is also that men and women are being raised to be a certain way, to fit an ideal e.g. docile and forbearing women) 4) ...Eris is a horrible example. By the time we meet her, an arranged marriage is basically off the table. Her reputation (in not fitting a traditional gender role) has ruined any chance of that. Sure, there's a possibility of her being made some noble's concubine sex slave, but her family hired tutors to train her in the sword and magic. She's implicitly being prepared so she has the option she eventually takes, the same one Paul took, to leave the aristocratic scene and forge her own path. Rudy arriving and actually... well, not quite hitting it off (except in a physical violence sense), but bonding with her, combined with the political calculus of adopting him, is what brings the option of a productive arranged marriage back into play. Loosely speaking she and Rudy would have been normal... had she stuck around. And spent the few years waiting for Rudy to come of age talking over their planned life together. I actually feel pretty confident judging human marriages in Mushoku Tensei by our standards, by which I mean generally how things have been on Earth for the last two millennia or so. It's not like they're beastfolk who by nature or nurture accept males stronger than them as their mates. They're still human, even the elves, half-elves, and demons that have smoothly integrated into human society. By the same token I would assume that no, LinkTSwordmaster, a woman generally wouldn't enjoy her husband introducing her to another woman that he cheated on her with and in the same breath asking her permission to marry her as an additional wife. But. In Mushoku Tensei unless she was raised in the Millis faith she was probably also not raised to take her husband's fidelity as an absolute requirement, and him breaking it as the ultimate betrayal of their marriage vows, but instead to overlook it as long as her own needs (material and emotional) were met. That is, to tolerate it when it is tolerable (or must be tolerated). I.e. just like real life but with the dials tweaked towards "early Mormons". |
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T3rmidor
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For me it felt kinda of forced: I wasn't surprised bc I was spoil about what was going to happen, but at least from my view, it was more plot driven to make Rudeus get his harem than anything else. In this regard, Roxy feels plain as a character, although it is a common trend in this kind of stories that female romantic interests lack the character autonomy in reference to the male MC.
Also in regards to polygamy, I think that the relation to sexist actitudes is fair bc in pre industrial societies the vast majority of cases are of polygyny, aka, the acceptance of the practice of a man marrying multiple woman, often related to status. This lack of social context is something rampamt in fantasy works, and something I complained about with the slavery controversy a sesson ago, in that the author seem to take the liberty of a "medieval with magic" world to introduce any practice it consider for it's convineance. For example it seems strange Elianise needs to explain it for Rudeus as an option when is apparently something not uncommon. |
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FanGamer24
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It is uncommon it just isn't frowned upon. It's like in real life, the only people who could possibly take on multiple wives are those with the financial means to do so and most wouldn't even consider the option under normal circumstances unless you grew up in such an environment. In Rudy's case, he's only really experienced it with his parents and that was something that only happened because of Paul cheating and Rudy meddling in order to keep them together. Anyways it's refreshing to see an isekai take the Harem aspect seriously. I'm really curious how things will work out between the 3 of them and I'm even more anxious to see what happens when Eris makes her inevitably return. It was already gearing up to be awkared thanks to the misunderstanding between them but I can't even imagine how she'll react to finding out Rudy not only moved on but got two wives. |
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Jabootu
Posts: 233 |
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T3rmidor:
I can see that, but thinking about it, I'm not sure it's really so strange. Rudy was raised in a house sans a second marriage (which presumably happened after he was carted off to tutor Eris). His mother--from what we've been told--was a follower of Milis and thus Rudy probably wasn't raised to think much about concubines and second wives. And while obviously he would have learned about Lilia's changed in status, well, she was still a concubine, not a second wife. I think it impossible that Rudy would ever view Roxy in such a secondary role. The Greyrats from Eris' side of the family seemed more like they slept with the maids than taking on other wives or concubines, perhaps to maintain political flexibility and to keep successions clean. After that Rudy basically roamed around until he got to the school, and there probably weren't too many married people there. Elianise, meanwhile, has been all over and is hundreds of years old, and obviously her life hasn't been as, uh, insular as Rudy's. And there's uncommon and there's uncommon. Again, presumably only the rich and the powerful much engage in it. Second, I completely disagree that the women on this show lack personal autonomy. Eris shows autonomy by sleeping with Rudy and then leaving him, and rejecting her family's wishes that she engage in a political marriage. Roxy showed autonomy by aiding Paul in saving Zenith, even after she learns that they will be meeting Ruijerd, and then in sleeping with Rudy and then agreeing to marry him, but only if Sylphy agrees. Sylphy showed autonomy by, in the end, overcoming her shyness and putting the moves on Rudy too. In none of these case do I see any of them "receiving agency" from Rudy. Actually, if Sylphy received agency from anyone it was the Princess (and Luke to a lessor extent), who got tired of her lollygagging and ordered her to fish or cut bait. No, not all these decisions and actions were perfect, especially by our rather narrow, modern American lens. (Which, needless to say, if quite different than even the modern Japanese lens, where sex outside of marriage is pretty commonly accepted.) However, the reason they are such great characters is because, as with everyone on the show, they have to make compromises and imperfect decisions as they grope for happiness and fulfillment. In other word, the show treats them like normal human beings (you all know what I mean), which is pretty refreshing these days. Girls can have flaws too! Wow! Gamen wrote:
First of all, I respect your in-depth thinking on this matter, I just disagree with it. I don't think your view is wildly off-base, but it doesn't fit the world as it's been presented to us. Given the author's painstaking worldbuilding, I have no problem accepting things as we get them. Nothing that happens in the show has ever struck me contrived or overly an awkward shortcut to reach a preferred end. But, agree to disagree. I will say on this particular point, though, that Aristocrats are indeed in a minority, but it's the minority that defines social norms, even if they don't filter down to the common man due to political and economic limitations. Also, let's look at our cast, Rudy and Eris are themselves nobles. Roxy is a famous, world class mage, tutor to nobles and royalty, heralded as one of the greatest in the world. Sylphy was born a commoner, but is now herself a famously powerful mage--able to stare down an entire dormful of women who can wield magic themselves--and is closely aligned with a Princess and, through Luke, the main branch of the Greyrat family. Of the main characters, only Cliff is really constrained from taking a second wife or concubine, and that's largely because he's literally in the running to become the Pope. Point in fact, we never really spend much time with normal peasants, so their view on things really wouldn't apply here. And most of the peasant daughters would enter an arranged marriage to a merchant or the town butcher is one were available anyway. Really, going back not too far in the past, the idea that the average woman married for love was a fairly nonstandard state of affairs. |
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T3rmidor
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And no, I don't think female characters are great in Mushoku. I'll again repeat the impression that Roxy marriage seems more plot driven than anything else. Why must all three childhood love interests become Rudeus wifes? Can't they find someone else as they go their differents ways? Why must Rudeus have a harem, a clear male fantasy fullfiment element in isekai stories? I'm not going to deny that there are some good qualities in the series, if the people who criticise continue to watch is because we find more positive than negative, but I also think that the story isn't a masterpiece in the way it handles is characters. |
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niknasr
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What do you mean by "character autonomy"? Is it in the way that the character can say "no" to a proposal or want to become the only couple with MC? If ep23 to suggest, it have shown a very big character autonomy from Roxy. Well, in the episode from what I can infer, Roxy was ready to leave Rudeus after they finished their journey. In this case I believed she's shown autonomy, even though she loved Rudeus she knows to backed off and respect Rudeus reluctance. And even after provided with such option after she got proposed by him she still say to get his wife approval, she's not just say yes, even though I believed that's what she wanted but she also knows to respect Rudeus' wife and probably this shown her willingness to follow the hierarchy.
It's weird that you point out a practice introduction in a fiction world as something of convenience, when we don't even know what is the norm and what's not in that world besides it's fiction counterpart which also another imagination from different author. Alas, It's interesting when you go to Elinalise part, since I think that's one of the brilliant part in this episode, she who we as viewers knew who she was pre-Cliff and post Cliff, relationship to Paul albeit vaguely, grandma of Sylphy and friend with Roxy, is certainly the exact person to be talking about this with Rudeus. As far as I'm concern instead of explaining, I saw it as she seems she wants to reaffirm Rudeus belief and especially for viewers context mostly, not because it is uncommon. |
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Rogueywon
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Oh I do hope they end this season with the next Turning Point.
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jdnation
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While polygamy is a norm in Mushoku Tensei's world, Rudy comes from a world and time where it wasn't. And while Rudy himself was a social contrarian who has now been reborn and raised in a family and world where it was normal, and which he himself helped make happen, the MT audience are still from a world where it is not, and thus the storytelling needs to convince us why this can at least be understood as a necessary step for the characters, even if not acceptable by our world's standards; ESPECIALLY because of how great Rudy and Slyphie's relationship has been, which this undermines, if not destroys idealistically.
One thing I'm wondering about is why Paul and Elinalese were pushing Rudy into taking Roxy. They seem to know something with concern to her that we don't. Paul casually hinted to it at Rudy metaphorically with his swords. Elinalese tells him bluntly. Rudy for some reason also never tells Roxy or anyone else in the party (Aside from Paul) in passing conversation despite the few days time they were together, "Hey, since last we met, I got married and have a child on the way!" The kind of casual banter people have within their group. Little doubt he'd been dying to talk to Roxy, "Master! What else have you been up to after you stopped tutoring me? I have done this, that, etc." And he never mentioned to most important thing that recently happened in his life that he's hurrying to get back to??? Is this bad writing, or is there something lost in the adaptation where he deliberately avoided mentioning it to Roxy specifically for some reason? Even if that reason was selfish lustful thoughts, it'd be a reason, but even that never seemed to be the case until Roxy bed-slammed him while he was vulnerable. I know the priority is rescuing his mother, but we know they all still had downtime to have these chats in the dungeon and at the inn. So I'm hoping something can somehow sell this, or a set of circumstances comes up where they both mutually agree to put off this possibility for the time being. Because I'm not seeing it working out with all the other things Rudy has to deal with once he arrives home, from his pregnant wife, breaking the bad news to his sisters, seeking medical help for his mother and his arm, and earning a living while attending school and doing research. Heck, he could actually make a good case that he thinks having Roxy as a 2nd wife would actually help the family deal with all this as an extra set of hands, also considering Roxy is also a studied mage, teacher, and a seasoned adventurer for hire. Norn could be tutored by her. There, I convinced myself, now Rudy and the show need to do it too! |
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Jabootu
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T3rmidor responded:
Well, you're writing is less plagued with typos then mine, so the compliment is warrented. And your point is taken. I respect your take, but this is another agree to disagree thing. I have never felt any aspect of the show, including any of his relationships, was compromised to advance a plot. I'm not even sure the show has a plot. It's more of an extended slice of life, with life in this case extending from birth to death in old age. All three must become Rudy's wives because they love him and he loves them. This is not (to say the least) one of your average potato-kun leads of a harem anime. Each has their history with Rudy, and it's easy see how each could have fallen for him. Agency isn't just telling somebody to screw off. It's working to make your goals happen, and then if things work out they do. Again, with Roxy you use the word "plot-driven", which is for me the last word I would use for this show. It would be like describing Frieren as plot-driven. Yes, there are arcs with plots, but overall this is not a plot show. It's an examination of refreshingly complex characters and worldbuilding. I get that to you personally the Roxy relationship doesn't work. All I can say is that for me, and for presumably the vast majority of the audience, it works fine. Why does Rudy have to have a "harem"? First of all, "harem" is a generic anime phrase that doesn't really apply here. Rudy does not have a "harem," which as a trope label describes a bunch of wives who only exist to serve a rather generic protagonist. Sylphy, Roxy and Eris are well drawn characters with goals in their own lives. One of those goals is to be with Rudy, and and in each case you can see why. Past the monogamy thing, which as presented in this world is not a strict norm, Rudy is obviously a wonderful, caring, passionate and sensitive husband. None of that plays as false to me. 100 Girlfriends is also what we'd call a harem show, but it never feels bound by the tropes we associate with that term. It certainly doesn't feel like a male power fantasy. We never feel the women are unfulfilled by sharing the man they love with (ultimately) 99 other girls. The "clear male fantasy" aspect is more in the eye of the beholder. And we've yet to see the ramifications of this (presumably) marrying multiple women. If it was merely to satisfy a male fantasy, all would go swimmingly with the wives and eventual kids and grandkids all his life. I somehow doubt that will prove to be accurate. Rudy is also massively OP, which in most other isekais would be a "male power fantasy." But although stronger than most beings on the planet, Rudy never feels like his power gives him an easy path. Especially since his preferred tendency is to be non-confrontational. As powerful as Rudy is, he has been kidnapped, trapped, imprisoned, nearly killed on several occasions, actually killed on one occasion, and recently maimed and lost his father. I don't know, accusing this show of being a "male power fantasy" strikes me as odd. Mileage varies, but that doesn't accord with my experience with the show at all. Anyway, that's my take. My genuine hope is that you all enjoy it more than you dislike it (because otherwise why waste your time on it), and that as it proceeds more and more of your qualms are answered. Here's to many more seasons of the show to find out. Last edited by Jabootu on Mon Jul 01, 2024 7:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Hiroki not Takuya
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Ep24-I find the death of Paul and the acquisition of a second wife were handled quite sensitively with a believable amount of drama and not with the "oh, OK" of Isekai Smartphone. Now, on to S3 (can't wait)!
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Gamen
Posts: 253 |
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Now, I think I called Sylphy a doormat in one of these threads a few years ago and that wasn't entirely fair. It's arguable that Sylphy accepted Roxy too easily and with too little drama, but it was actually setup pretty thoroughly:
1) Their society itself is not opposed to polygamy, just one particular state religion 'that's almost on the other side of the world from them, and only two of the dependent members of the family are followers of it. So it's up to individuals as to whether to practice it. 2) She grew up with the Greyrat's polygamous family and saw how the dynamics worked... including Zenith being in charge. 3) One of her closest friends is Luke, another Greyrat with similar tendencies. Another is Ariel, with whom she's seen and got somewhat comfortable with just how Asuran nobles can be. 4) Rudy has been talking about Roxy for years to the point that Roxy already was living rent-free in Sylphy's head. Not to mention Roxy is the one who taught Rudy much of the magic that he in turn taught Sylphy and that saved her life and the lives of her new friends. 5) Norn ended up venting the complaints Sylphy might have had, allowing Sylphy to be the good cop to Norn's bad copy, and graciously allow Roxy into her household, putting Roxy in her debt, emotionally speaking, when Roxy was already in a weak position. 6) And while she does have insecurities, what she worried about was being replaced, either Rudy leaving her, or her being pushed to the side. She knows about Eris and Roxy, and knows she's his wife because she had no competition at the time, and expected to have additional wives join her. But instead the worst thing that happened is that Rudy broke a promise that while not something she took seriously nor critical to their marriage, was still a promise he made to her and failed to keep. But, that's basically all work the author did to enable this to go smoothly with minimal drama; it's mostly not anything Rudy himself did; Rudy's "part" was to build relationships with Roxy and Sylphy that are still meaningful after years apart, and to grow impressive enough that neither Roxy nor Sylphy think they can have him all to theirselves. It's not like Hyakkano or Kanono where the guy is working hard to make the polyamory work... though in fairness those two series are romcoms that are all about the romances. |
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Jabootu
Posts: 233 |
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Gamen wrote:
I agree with all your points, which are well stated. However, as to point 2, I will say again (unless there was a line of Rudy's narration that I missed / forgot after the adultery incident, which is possible) that I think they should have established that Paul married Lillia last season. It really clarifies and casts a different lens on a lot of issues. I sort of had to do a lot of mental rejuggling after learning that. As to point 4, I think Sylphy is probably relieved also that Roxy is just a person. Rudy's fixation on her (not even as a goddess, which again I think has mostly been a shtick for him for a while, but as his teacher and the woman who freed him from his shut-in shackles) must have built Roxy up in her mind to be this superhuman being. (Well, you know what I mean.) So meeting her and learning that she's just a person too is probably vastly reassuring. Plus both of them know what it's like to be generally considered a genius mage while privately knowing that they fall way, way short of Rudy's level. Honestly, I think the two share a lot in common and will be thick as thieves pretty quickly. Also, at baseline, both Roxy and Sylphy are pretty great, and it's not hard to imagine that their own relationship will grow very close. I think perhaps the main point, though, is that she must have been worried all this time that Rudy would never come back from his mission. Paul didn't, after all. And Rudy nearly died, as evidenced by his arm. (I was a little worried they'd somehow manage to heal his hand, but they haven't so far. I prefer ramifications to remain as ramifications, although this is a world of magic, so....) Aside from all the other points, which are valid, I think we forget how fragile life is in this world. Boy, I knew Roxy was tiny, but seeing Sylphy of all people looming over her like that.... Glad to see that Norn and Aisha look to have mended all their fences while Rudy was gone. They will still bicker like sisters, but Norn's shame at the idea that her complaints to Rudy might reflect on Aisha too (and the hint that Aisha is also worried about this, although she'd never admit it) was very sweet. Also great that getting next season confirmations at the end of the present season is really starting to catch on. Here's to (I assume) 2026. |
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