Forum - View topicVinland Saga (TV) (all seasons).
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Stark700
 Posts: 11762 Location: Earth |
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Season 1: Vinland Saga (TV) Season 2: Vinland Saga (TV 2) (discussion starts here) Source: Manga (ongoing @ 26 Volumes, by Makoto Yukimura) Demographic: Seinen Animation Studio: Season 1: Wit Studio Season 2: MAPPA Genres: action, adventure, drama Themes: historical, medieval, swordplay Plot Summary: Thorfinn is son to one of the Viking's greatest warriors, but when his father is killed in battle by the mercenary leader Askeladd, he swears his intent to have revenge. Thorfinn joins Askeladd's group in order to challenge him to a duel, and ends up caught in the middle of a war for the crown of England. Air Date & Platform: Season 1: July 6, 2019 (Saturday) Available on: Amazon Prime, Crunchyroll, HIDIVE, Netflix Season 2: January 9, 2023 (Monday) Available on: Crunchyroll Episode Count / Runtime: Season 1: 24 episodes Season 2: 24 episodes Total: 48 episodes |
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Stark700
Posts: 11762 Location: Earth |
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I saw all three episodes (3 of them aired today while the first one streamed yesterday) Going by this current pacing, it's adapting about 3-4+ chapters per episode.
Mostly, we are focused on a young Thorfinn and his adventures. However, one thing that really strike as unique is the Viking World setting. It brings together a harsh world characters have to adapt to in order to survive. There's also the war concepts. I'm also really glad they kept the violence and even have some anime original scenes. Episode 3 had more scenes focusing on Thors, another prominent character in the show. We'll see more of him this season. The OP and ED theme songs are phenomenal, particularly the one by Aimer. A great start for this anime. |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15576 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Looks promising so far. I guess that I could kind of dig if it leans into the violent manliness of a Viking. Had to listen to the Dovahkiin theme a couple times. Also thinking that I might want to go for that true Nord character I have been thinking for ages to play.
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2969 |
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#1 - #3
Triple airing to start off. I have to assume NHK are too busy showing Wimbledon over the next two weeks to have a regular air schedule, but I'm fine with that since the show has a stronger impact with the first three episodes rather than just the pilot. I was wondering what Twin Engine would do straight from Karakuri Circus. Not a bad thing to have a collaborative project with WIT studio (Attack on Titan) and Production I.G (Storied veterans). I don't know who was mainly in charge of the opening action set-piece, but if more of it is to come for this adaptation then long may this collaboration continue. As for the setting, it's believable enough although serious scholars will find several holes to pick (it's a work of fiction, so 100% accuracy isn't going to top the list). Mixing in real people (Leif Ericsson, famed for his discovery of Newfoundland/Vinland) and real events (the massacre which provoked King Sweyn, father of Cnut, to invade England for full-on conquest) is a nice touch, but the OP animation suggests this is all about Thorfinn and his coming of age as a warrior fighting for someone else rather than his family. Bringing in the legendary JomsVikings as a plot point makes an impression, but it also emphasises how this is a well-researched work of fiction rather than a historical re-enactment. Slicing up the unfortunate Christian Priest seems off as well, since that would have been more likely one and a half centuries prior to the series beginning when the Great Heathen Army was taking out half of England. By the 11th century, the Viking Age is already approaching its end with the Scandinavian Kings effectively Christian and the Old Religion on its way out. Thorfinn seems to be the archetypal kid who wants to grow up quickly and be like his famous warrior father. I doubt events will turn out that way, so he'll find out the hard way why his father was so desperate to ensure the villagers were kept safe from harm. Thors got a fight on his hands though, since the pirate's second in commandment appears to be eating one of the hallucinogenic mushrooms necessary to reach Berserker state of mind. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2969 |
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#4
Having such a long break after the cliffhanger ending of episode #3 takes the anticipation off quite a bit, but it's still worth the wait to see Thors the Troll take apart a ship full of pirates with his bare hands. 15 years living the hard life in Iceland has not dulled his fighting skills at all, although the pacifism he acquired after the great battle in episode #1 proves to be his undoing. Or maybe not, since he realised the contract on his head wouldn't magically disappear and needed some way to get the rest of his companions out of the impasse alive. To think he dies standing up, but would it have come to that had his headstrong son not been a stowaway? Either way, Thorfinn's fate is sealed and his story now begins. I still don't like him as a character, but with a father like that it's hard to live up to him. If that OP move is any indication, Thorfinn learns to fight with two daggers somehow. If his whole life henceforth is geared towards a revenge mission, he's going to need a good teacher. Askeladd failed to settle the duel with his assassin's strike, but even without the element of surprise he's more than capable of lopping off Thorfinn's head as things stand. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2969 |
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#5
Thorfinn is still annoying and he acts like the young brat he is, but Askeladd is right when he says there's no hiding the fact he has his father's genes and latent ability. At the very least, he's a lot tougher than kids his age and can go several weeks without food and hardly any fresh water and still survive. Faroe Islands to Northern England is a LONG sail, but it seems that was the rendezvous point for collecting the contract on Thors's head. Like a typical band of raiders, Askeladd's men pick a random village to pillage and temporarily take over for a couple of months to winter over. Although he insisted word not get out of the hostile takeover, the local lord must be really lax to not patrol his demesne for taxes and potential raiders. Before learning to fight, there's the lesson to learn about survival. At least with this end of this week Thorfinn could probably go back to his village and kill all of his peers with his father's dagger. Askleadd didn't joke around in the second duel and only resorted to kicking him down after having the measure of how hard Thorfinn had practised in the intervening period. There's probably significance to seeing the widowed Helga and Ylva back in Iceland. Thors and Thorfinn may be gone, but the pair of them have to survive and it looks like Ylva is working hard to forget about the pain. Helga is aware of this, but life for both of them will continue to be hard since the neighbours have their hands full surviving the frontier life and don't have much time and resources to spare for the two ladies. |
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ACｘS
 Posts: 961 |
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5:
I'm mostly intrigued by the paradoxical bond formed between Thorfinn and Askeladd. Thorfinn wants to avenge his father, but he's not strong enough. He has to gain experience by going into battles, and right now the only people who can give that to him are Askeladd and his crew. Thorfinn needs them. The more interesting part is on Askeladd. He's a pillager but also a businessman (or mercenary): he burns down villages for money. So why would he want to have Thorfinn on his crew? He doesn't need to kill him but there's also nothing in it for him to have the kid onboard, unless he thinks Thorfinn can help him bring in more money one way or another. Or is it out of moral obligations? He made a warrior's deal with Thorfinn but remember: this is the same guy who killed Thors even after losing to him in a fair fight. Or is it because he feels morally obliged to look after Thorfinn? He was taken aback after learning that Thors did not kill even one of his men. He has no hard feelings towards Thors or anyone standing in his way - he's just doing his job as a businessman - but by killing Thors he committed something dishonorable, and he's aware of that. So there we have it: Thorfinn and Askeladd keeping each other at arm's length. In terms of motivation, I'm not that interested in Thorfinn. It's Askeladd I'm fascinated to know. |
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ACｘS
Posts: 961 |
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6:
When you're so bent on one thing, you lose sight on everything else. Thorfinn wants revenge so much, he loses sight on what he has become (or what he has chosen to become). And of course, he becomes the very thing he hated too. This is a trope and it's been done to death. But this show does it well. I'm not bothered much by the time lapse; after Thorfinn and Askeladd recognized the transactional relationship between them, there's nothing much to develop other than Thorfinn gaining battle experience. Him meeting the lady (and recognizing the innocence he's lost) is just an allegory of how far (or perhaps lost) he's gone for his cause. Will he experience some kind of Stockholm Syndrome for sticking with Askeladd for so long? I don't know, and I think it's too early even to discuss the possibility. But the theme of the episode? A trope, but a well-done one. |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15576 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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No more sympathy for Thorfinn, he is now a monster. His emotional story is about how it is so sad that he lost his father, yet he may have killed a dozen fathers so far. And he has aided people openly pillaging homes, and the people not quickly killed are then raped, such as the fate open for that girl that pulled him from the river. As far as concerned, he is the reason that girl is probably about to be raped. He is going to have to go a long way to have any level of redemption.
The women and children excuse, that men be forced into those wars, with the woman saying it so concern to her, also makes me feel sick. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2969 |
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If one is going to get revenge against the monsters who killed your family, becoming a monster even more vile than the target is usually the only successful course of action.
It's always the first kill that's the hardest, but once Thorfinn has it out of the way everything afterwards is easy since he can maximise his advantages relative to the adult combatants. The East Anglian family who sheltered him when he was injured pay a heavy price for their charity. Although Thorfinn tries his best to show gratitude by giving them a head start, his decision to finish his job as a scout essentially dooms them since his foreign language skills aren't on par with his killing ability. The question is: does Thorfinn take such betrayals in his stride in his ultimate quest to get revenge, or does he remember this incident for later on in his burgeoning career as a child soldier? Unusual for this episode to give background information on the setting, but it's now clear this is the reign of Aethelred the Unready and the coming of the unified Northern Kingdom with Sweyn Forkbeard and Cnut (he of the tides). Askeladd's mercenary crew are the vanguard for the Danish invasion, which historically is successful. To what end Thorfinn will play a part in this remains to be seen. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2969 |
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#7
King Sweyn holds off his full-scale invasion of England, allowing the army to take a winter break in preparation for a full-on summer invasion. What's a Norse pirate to do when he's suddenly unemployed? Go raid the West Franks. At this point in time, Vikings had already been allowed to settled in what is today called Normandy by Charles the Simple of the Carolingian dynasty. Ostensibly they were given in land in return for protecting the Franks from Viking raids, but those in the Normandy Marches were mercenaries happy to raid their ostensible liege lords for loot and treasure if they were hired to do so. The fat general/monarch is a reference to Charles the Fat, he who bought off a Viking invasion of Paris in the mid 9th century. Like his historical inspiration, this nameless fat general is played for a fool by Askeladd, although at this point raids like this were on the wane compared to their heyday in the 9th and 10th centuries. Askeladd's strategy was a crazy one, but it worked well since the element of surprise stupefies the defenders long enough for the ships to make it to the river. Crossbow barrage from the fort would have thinned out the ranks of Askeladd's men had Thorfinn not intervened. Perhaps that is why Askeladd accepted the challenge since the sudden cessation of crossbow bolts was down to Thorfinn and his reckless attack. Askeladd will probably not take Thorfinn so lightly if they duel next week, the latter has earned his right having killed enough to be no different from the Viking raiders he despises. |
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ACｘS
Posts: 961 |
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7:
I love how this show is about game theory (or the fallacy of it). Fat General thinks he's striking a fair deal with Askeladd but he forgot that it's never about being fair. At the end of the day, it's about who gets the treasure. Maybe deep inside the general knows that, but it's not like he can do anything about it. That's the thing about deals: the one with leverage (almost) always wins. Game theory is about rationality after all, but people are not rational and the payoffs are never equal across all parties (or if you like to put it, symmetrical). People often confuse rationality with fairness, which are two very different things. Askeladd is purely rational; why would he care about being honorable in a deal when he gets to live and the booty at the end of the day? He's not even mad that he's going to get some casualties in the process. Thorfinn however, is about fairness. He wants a fair fight with Askeladd; that's the only reason he's sticking with him from the onset. But he's not rational. If he wants to avenge his father, why not just kill Askeladd in his sleep? He literary had that chance once. But no, he insists on killing Askeladd fair and square, as the son of an man who instilled the honors of a warrior in him. Thorfinn, who is about being fair and is bitter towards Askeladd for not being fair, on one end. Askeladd, who is about not being a sucker and sees no point in being fair, on the other. You can pretty much tell who's winning from this. It's actually tragic to see how Thorfinn is being suckered by Askeladd, just like his late father (although to be fair, Thors didn't really have a choice in his own situation). And worse, Thorfinn's fully aware of it. He's a victim of his own irrationality, and Askeladd is exploiting that while reaping the benefits. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2969 |
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#8
Like the real Vikings of the 9th and 10th centuries, Askeladd's crew have to find a place to winter. Their preferred choice is somewhere in the Jutland peninsula, so quite far away from Thorfinn's homeland in Iceland. I don't know if Askeladd really is the blood nephew of the village chief Gorm, but he doesn't hold the chief in much respect as he sees him as just a miser who prides the possession of money above all else. His point about Gorm not being a good master hits home for viewers, since Thorfinn is the best example of Askeladd's considerable man-management skills. Askeladd kept his word to Thorfinn about the duel. What I didn't expect was Askeladd still not going all out against Thorfinn. He deliberately allowed himself to be disarmed before using psychological manipulation to goad Thorfinn into a reckless attack which cost him the duel. Askeladd still sees Thorfinn as an asset he can use, so no need to kill him for now. The next story arc begins shortly afterwards. Full-on Danish invasion of England and the siege of London is the next battlefield. I'm curious who the blond warrior in the full-face helmet is, as well as the big blond warrior defending London from the Danish ships. |
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ACｘS
Posts: 961 |
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8:
The moment Askeladd opens his mouth and Thorfinn listens to him, I knew the duel was already decided. Even though Thorfinn has become a better fighter, he still hasn't really matured. Askeladd pointed out how taller Thorfinn has gotten taller over the years, so imagine his disappointment when he realized how easily he outwitted him with a few words (maybe he's not even disappointed; he knew all along). And I love how Askeladd is demonstrating - reiterating, in fact - everything I've said in my previous post. And Thorfinn, still the victim of his own irrationality without even knowing it. Theme of the day: slavery. Usually when slavery is mentioned, people think of Aristotle's definition of natural slavery. But Askeladd, ever the astute businessman that he is, refers to Epictetus's understanding of slavery. He highlights how his uncle is a slave to money, which runs against Epictetus's teaching. We are all slaves to something, tangible or not, and according to Stoicism, it's about how to control what you can control in order to achieve ataraxia: peace of mind. If you think Thorfinn is better at understanding the meaning of slavery, think again; he's actually lot worse than even Hordoland. Thorfinn is a slave of virtue (in his case, specifically honor) but he's clearly clueless about this while waxing philosophical at her. Even her gut feeling is better than him at sensing the sheer irony of it all. Thors's death was not Thorfinn's fault, but as long as Thorfinn thinks he was, he will never achieve peace of mind and will forever be a slave, just like Hordoland. The idea of Vinland's existence is interesting. The Vikings seek to find this paradise of earth. But throughout history such lands do not exist. In fact, such lands might have existed in principle but cannot exist in real life. Such lands exist in theory only because no one has found it, and once these lands are found, this 'paradise' will cease to exist. Thorfinn asserts that no slavery or war exists on Vinland; that's only because no one has found it. Slavery and war exist only because people exist. This is an observer's paradox in practice. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2969 |
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#9
Another action set-piece to frame this week's episode. Thorkell the Tall must be one of the JomsViking leaders who decided to fight for the English as a mercenary. He's in it for both the money and the thrills, since he's so strong he prefers a challenge in battle which he can't get for fighting for the overwhelmingly superior Danish forces. No surprise seeing Askeladd send Thorfinn up against the mercenary. He knew Thorfinn wouldn't resist (if he had better judgement he wouldn't have taken up the offer) because of his desire for revenge, so Askeladd wins either way regardless of the result of the duel. If Thorfinn had win, Askeladd would have taken credit later for the fall of London Bridge and his men would get an increased share of the loot. Since he knew Thorfinn couldn't win, it would have been a bonus to see him killed on the Bridge which would lessen the threat on his own life and possibly fulfil his promise to Thors that his son would be raised and die as a warrior. Thorkell lost two fingers due to complacency, though it has to be said Thorfinn's desire for revenge wasn't something he was going to pick up on during the duel. In addition to his injuries, Thorfinn has lost one of his daggers. If it's the one his father left behind as a memento, the loss will hurt him more than his considerable injuries. Thorfinn's last comment is an instructive one. Compare his final words to his attitude at the start of the series when he couldn't wait to get involved with the Danish invasion of England. Battles are fun if it's someone like Thorkell who's been winning all his life and the risk of getting killed in battle is close to zero, for everyone else who isn't blessed with abnormal physiques and ridiculous fighting skills battles are a life or death affair which many walk a thin line veering to the latter. If Thorfinn learnt anything in this duel, it's a little insight into why his father faked death to flee his command at the JomsVikings and spend over a decade of his life quietly as a frontier homesteader in Iceland. Prince Canute features in the OP, so how will the future king of the Danelaw win the trust of his father who clearly does not rate him enough to join the rest of the main expeditionary force heading towards Winchester? |
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