Forum - View topicGood because of themes or just good anime?
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
 Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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I don't post here too often, but I hope other users will give my forum topic a bit of thought and feedback. I'm thinking I give certain themes in anime what may be undue preference in not just selecting which anime to watch, but perhaps a heightened level of positive evaluation of the show's merits. I am not sure if I'm only selecting a show based on the themes I like, or if I am also favorably rating the show primarily because it contains those themes rather than a more objective or unbiased criteria like storytelling, character development, art style and overall show's quality.
Maybe it's more of a coincidence that the majority shows I've selected (based solely specific themes and genres) happen to also be good shows that other people would like, regardless of their theme preferences. Maybe it's that I'm just easy to please and also happen to be good at finding good shows which match a lot of of my genre preferences. Take for example one show I'm currently watching: Aoharu X Kikanjuu, which I think is a good case study for this subject I'm pondering. I say that because it has a theme that I really like (crossdressing characters) and also has a theme that I generally dislike (guns). I picked Aoharu X Kikanjuu completely because of the shows title character who is a girl pretending to be a boy. If Aoharu was actually a boy, I would never have picked up this show. It wouldn't have even registered on any sort of list of interesting shows to watch. And that's completely because of the show's other theme, which is gunfighting. My overall opinion of the show is very positive, but I think that is entirely due to things that have nothing to do with either of those 2 themes: The characters are interesting, there is a great underlying story about perceptions people have about each other and how that influences their interactions and behaviors towards others. The action scenes are well animated, the art style is pleasant and there is a good sense of realism portrayed in various aspects of the show. I am wondering if other people have a feeling they may be unfairly favoring shows only because of the themes or is it just that, in all likelihood, if you continue to just focus on particular themes, you'll still run across mostly good anime and only the occasional bomb dropper? |
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Saffire
 Posts: 1256 Location: Iowa, USA |
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Think about it this way. If there was such a thing as a formula by which you could objectively determine that "this character development is good", literally everybody would use it. Why wouldn't you? You're guaranteed to write a good story! No one would ever have to worry about whether their work is good ever again! Heck, we probably wouldn't even need writers or editors! We could just run story concepts through machine programs and they would spew out great new fiction for us! Instead, creatives agonize for months/years/whatever over minor details and whether to include or chop them. And then people argue for years on the Internet about those details and whether it makes the story better or not. If a show has one badly animated episode (and what counts as "badly animated" itself is sometimes personal definition), how much should that hurt the evaluation? Some people won't care, others will treat it as a crime against humanity. If evaluating whether a show was good or not was simply a function of applying a few formulas, we wouldn't need critics or discussion boards; someone could just run the numbers and we'd all base our seasonal watch lists on those. You should have an open mind and be listening to what other people are saying about other shows (trying new things is good!), but wondering whether you're "unfairly" favoring shows for having certain themes is a path to madness. You don't owe anybody or any show anything. Enjoy what you enjoy. |
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Touma
 Posts: 2651 Location: Colorado, USA |
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@Past
I have read your post but I do not understand what your problem is, assuming that you do have a problem. I am not sure of that. Looking at just the title I would say that it is not a matter of themes or "good" anime. A theme is just one of many things that makes a show good, or not, for you. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a show because of the theme. I do not think that you can give a show undue preference or unfairly favor it because of the theme. The theme is as good a reason as any to decide to watch a show, or to enjoy a show. And if we had "objective or unbiased criteria" there would be no need for threads such as this. But please let us not start beating that poor old dead horse again. |
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Dessa
 Posts: 4438 |
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I generally don't rate series, because I don't want to quantify my enjoyment. If I like it, I like it, if I don't, I don't. I don't want to have to look at HOW much I like it (other than if it's one of my favorites and/or liked enough to buy) or dislike it. Or then consider "oh, well, even if I loved it, is the quality good enough to rank it higher?"
I wouldn't say I necessarily stick to themes, per se, but I do tend to watch (or not watch) certain genres. Slice-of-Life doesn't generally interest me, so unless it has a hook that sparks me (such as School Live and it's spoiler[taking place after the zombie apocalypse]), I wouldn't even start it. On the other hand, I love fantasy, and just about any fantasy-based series I'll at least consider checking out. Some have turned into duds (Lance 'n' Masques has an interesting set-up, but I just can't get into it), and others haven't. I don't know the show you brought up as an example, but I'll bring up a common one that I think works quite a bit for this: Sword Art Online SAO is one of the highest watched and rated anime of recent years. Given its giant impact*, at this point, I'd compare it to Evangelion*, Sailor Moon, or Dragonball, with how much it has gripped America with being "that one series that everyone has to watch." To make it clear, before I go further, I don't like SAO. I watch it, because I find it has entertainment value, but I don't "like" it. Many of the reasons I don't like it will be coming out further in this post. For genres and themes, it has many things that draw people to it. It is both fantasy (in the games) and sci-fi (the technology behind the games). It involves video games. It involves online communities. It has strong male and female characters**. It is swords (from the start) and sorcery (starting in the 2nd arc). It has guns (from the third arc). It involves a death game (first and third arcs). I could go on, but there's little point. At the same time, there's a lot that turns people off. It has stereotypical (ymmv, but almost to the point of gary stu/mary sue levels) characters**. It's extremely repetitive. Twice the author has fallen back on spoiler[attempted rape] to create drama. It has plot holes you could drive a Gundam through. Again, I could go on. The series is very divisive. Some people can ignore the bad aspects (or don't even notice them, if they're not paying attention). Others can't, but are willing to look past them because they enjoy the series despite them. Looking at the quality, there's little arguing that the animation quality is superb. There may be a few bad spots (I can't think of any off the top of my head), but its obvious that there were talented animators and a good budget that went into the series. The voice acting, as well, is very good, for the most part. As with everything, there are scenes where the voice talent doesn't do as well, but overall, the voice acting is well done (both in Japanese and in English). The writing... well, I won't go into that, because many of the "turn offs" up there are a result of the writing, which, by default, means that there's problems with it. So, now, we have everything laid out. Theme-wise, there are a lot of things people like (and a few that people don't). Quality-wise, it's a fairly high-ranking series, but it does have problems. I'd argue that, while a lot of people do enjoy it for the animation and such, it's more enjoyed because of the themes and story it presents. *No pun intended, using "impact" and "Evangelion" in the same sentence. **Yes, these two both go together. |
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Keichitsu0305
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In a way I understand what Past is talking about but, I'm assume that the "issue" is whether or not a series (anime or not) qualifies as good because of the themes the story presents or if its just highly regarded.
Let's take Aoharu x Machinegun for example. I volunteered to review this show for a pop culture website that's now defunct. In my opinion, the show blows by both standards. Characters: Boring, forgettable cliches that any shoujo manga fan has seen before in better works. Crossdressing dumb tomboy heroine who's good at a specific sport/talent? Playboy adult male jackass? Perverted shy manchild? Creepy doctor sadist? Idiotic ultra-feminine girl who berates her best friend for playing *gasp* manly games? Animation/Art: Low, relied too much on old tricks like reusing sequences during fights, still images when Hotaru's team are practicing,color filters to trick audiences to treat dull, uninspiring "action" scenes as exciting. Plot: Nothing is resolved within the thirteen episodes including the fact that Hotaru has been lying to Team Toy Gun Gun about her gender even though she has the ability to fight on nearly equal grounds (I say nearly because the writers can't make up their dang mind if she's unskilled or freaking Eren from AOT and wants to shoot all the Titans!!) Guess how long it took Haruhi from Ouran to say she's a girl? ONE CHAPTER/EPISODE! But hey, you might ask, why is Ouran considered "good" if the themes are so similar to Aoharu? Both have crossdressing girls (even though Aoharu has more in common with Stella C3 since both involve airsoft games) Well, that all depends on two things (for myself): What you find enjoying in a series and what have you seen previously to compare/contrast to. Rating varies from show to show based on lots of factors but, what I have seen will always be compared to what I want to see. So, themes (like target demographics) are irrelevant to me; good and bad shows can have similar themes but be presented in totally different ways. There's no right or wrong way to determine a show is "good" other than being totally objective and describe what it failed/succeeded at which is both boring and difficult. |
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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I knew someone would compare this show to Ouran High School, but really as far as the similarities are concerned, the only ones are the fact that the male lead is a host and the female lead pretends to be a boy. The similarities end when you consider those facts were merely setups for AK's main storyline points: Matsuoka-san is good at survival games because of the skills he gained while being a host. 2) A lot of reasoning behind Hotaru's identity as a champion of justice has to do with the fact that she uses her boy-like abilities and appearance to defeat evil that preys on perhaps more common subjects of victimization, such as girls and people who are different. I think both of these points are very deep in their meaning and relevance to social issues today. None of this was ever explored in Host Club, it seems like they were going to attempt it but fell short and fell back on just silly, gag humor and lots of typical anime tropes. I disliked Ouran Host Club and comparing it to Aoharu X Machinegun does a disservice to the interesting themes and subjects presented in the latter. So what this says about my question about themes versus quality of anime is yes definitely YMMV. The fact that one of the main themes of the show is crossdressing makes it relevant to things I'm interested in and explores other similar themes that I find important (like exploration of gender, sexuality, and philosophy of social issues). When the show does a good job of tackling those topics in addition being good in other aspects, then this is a show that I rate very favorably.
So perhaps, to clarify the purpose of this topic, a lot of times I hear people saying they like a show because is has something in it they like. For example, someone liking Gundam for the giant robots. I'm not faulting anyone or complaining that people do that, but is it something we, or I, tend to do too much because of being obsessed with a certain theme? Or to put it a better way, am I clouding my judgement of a show on inherent merits as long as I see themes I like presented? I appreciate the points others have made to ease my concerns, but it still seems shallow to me. Fortunately, I don't think that's the case with Aoharu X Kikanjuu. The crossdressing thing successfully baited me to want to watch the show, but it does not overuse or focus on that theme. The focus of the show is definitely survival games and the development of Hotaru's team. Furthermore, she always appears as a boy, but that's simply for the sake of how she leads her life. Her crossdressing is not used for gags, fanservice and as far as I know, there are no scenes with her actually dressed as a girl since checking off an ecchi trope might be "I wonder what she looks like in a school swimsuit (girl's)." But I admit, I am curious. And one final point, to say Hotaru is lying is an opinion that reeks of sexism. She always crossdresses, she goes to school as a boy, even though it seems that most of the students know she's a girl, and the school is very lax in it's uniform rules. Can't she continue doing that if she wants to play survival games and join a team? She has every right to wear men's clothes. Matsuoka-san said he doesn't allow girls on his team and she is violating that rule, but she is not lying because the question of whether she is a boy or girl hasn't come up (as of episode 10). What matters is she's a good survival game player so I think Matsuoka-san would be just as reluctant to make her quit the team as she is reluctant to leave over that one detail about her gender. Last edited by P€|\||§_|\/|ast@ on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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In my opinion, there is a heavy, heavy, heavy difference between something that makes you feel good, and something that is good FOR you. Entertainment is no exception to this. Likewise, entertainment is something that doesn't really have a concrete definition because one individual's idea of what constitutes it is different from the next. Remember, the Romans considered feeding slaves to lions to be the pinnacle of a good time.
One of my main interests is media literacy; that is, I like to dissect something to see what makes it work or not. Heck, I have an entire thread dedicated to analyzing certain works. I can understand if someone has no real interest in these sorts of things. However, I do draw the line when someone suggests that people like me are somehow stupid and wrong for enjoying analyzing. (There's an episode of The Fairly OddParents called "Smart Attack!", which is basically one big anti-intellectual screed. I cannot look back on it anymore without sighing in embarrassment.) I think what we like and dislike is integral to how we enjoy a certain work or it's elements. I fancy myself quite the fantasy and science fiction nerd, so I tend to like those sorts of stories more than usual. However, I am aware that not every speculative fiction work is good, and I do like other shows or books that are not in those particular genres. What's important to me is that I judge a work not by my own biases, but on whether it succeeds in what it sets out to do. The basic goal is to not be boring, but the best shows are those that are more than just popcorn entertainment. |
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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I was actually aiming that statement more at the other posters. I am perfectly fine if you like something, but I think you should be honest as to WHY you like this particular thing. After all, there are shows out there that are not above pandering to their demographic in lieu of actual storytelling. Feel free to drop shows if you feel that after the first few episodes or so, the story is going nowhere. In general, I don't like dropping anything, since my ideal watching style involves judging the work as a whole. (The last time I dropped something was a film called Catnapped!, which I quit half an hour in because of the rushed pacing and the fact that the two lead kids are horribly unlikable.) |
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Touma
Posts: 2651 Location: Colorado, USA |
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I decided to keep my comments general rather than quoting and directly replying to anybody.
I believe that there are no right or wrong reasons for enjoying any type of entertainment. Thinking that a show is good because of the theme is just as valid as thinking that a show is good because of the story, or the characters, or anything else. Having said that I will also say that I do not think that you can enjoy a show just because of the theme. No matter how simple, shallow or superficial a show might be there is always more to it than just the theme. All shows have stories, characters and other elements that are at least somewhat different from other shows with the same themes. No matter how much you like the theme you are not going to be able to like the show if you do not enjoy at least some of those other elements. I do not think that anybody should be concerned too much with liking a show because of the theme, because there will always be other reasons why you like it. |
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Alan45
 Village Elder Posts: 10030 Location: Virginia |
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@Past
I think a favorite theme likely enhances my enjoyment of a show. I don't think it can make a show I dislike appealing but might help with something that is marginal. I tend to consider every show that becomes available here. Some I can dismiss on the story concept or the artwork. Others I will give a try now that streaming is available for most shows. I think in most cases a favored theme will have me look more closely and perhaps give it a couple more episodes than I would otherwise. However, since this is entertainment, I will not continue watching something I don't enjoy. Concerning Aoharu X Kikanjuu , I had forgotten that included cross dressing. I only watched a couple episodes and quit because it did not engage me. I couldn't get interested in the characters and survival games don't interest me. As far as I did watch, I didn't get the impression that the cross dressing was anything but her personal preference and didn't see it being significant to the plot. I do not think there is any way that you have to enjoy entertainment. If you enjoy dissecting a show and rating it or its elements that is fine. If you prefer to sit back and simply watch that is fine as well. What isn't right is to try to tell someone that their method is wrong. |
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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Yamada San and the Seven Witches had gender-bending as the "catch" theme but the anime is a slice-of-life-ish gag and situational comedy about how magic sets the stage for student council politics. The main characters exchange bodies, therefore occasionally experience life as the opposite sex, but that really only plays into the story a little bit, and unless this was a hentai show, that's really all you can get out of that theme. I like seeing the interactions of the characters when they experience becoming the opposite sex. I think its funny and interesting but even I would get tired of it if that's all the show relied on. I want intruigue, mystery, action, adventure, character development, romance, drama, other stuff in my anime to give me reason to keep watching. |
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