Forum - View topicANN and the industry's stance on fansubs (ANN official on P5
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jackal912
Posts: 7 |
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I'm a person who watches fansubs exclusively - for several reasons.
One - I can't afford them. Period. Yes, yes, I know, get a job and all that, but I have a rather busy schedule even without a job. Two - they're on television in Japan anyway, It seems kind of cheap to release even a small series on /several/ DVDs, each of whom are expensive Three - I'm one of those people who believes that most voice actors in dubbing are totally awful - it rarely captures the real feel of the moment, especially since so many tend to resort to monotone voices even in the most dramatic of situations - the original japanese with subtitles isn't as common as it should be. Four - there's a /lot/ of bad anime out there, and it really sucks when you tossed 50 bucks on a series that turns out you hate. Indirectly, it discourages people to not even try anime they know aren't famous masterpieces. |
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Nom_Anor
Posts: 246 |
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There is an easy fix to this. If they give permission for people to subtitle and distribute their anime in countries it hasn't been licensed, it would be perfectly legal. |
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ultrapostman
Posts: 164 Location: New Jersey. Don't you just love traffic circles? |
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I hope this isn't too off topic...
I'm trying to figure this out. I have a friend (seriously) who watches fansubbed episodes of Naruto Shippuden every week or so (as soon as he can find the fansubs). He does watch the naruto dub on Toonami, but with the filler approaching he says that he'll probably stop watching the dub entirely (might not even watch the Tea Country Arc). I'm sure there are many people out there who agree with him, and will probably not watch the filler on Toonami. My question is, what would be the right thing to do? What through the filler until Shippuden hits the U.S? Or just watch Shippuden? |
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HitokiriShadow
Posts: 6251 |
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I think it just comes off that way because there is much more discussion of the actual releases. I think most of the people at ANN buy the legit DVDs, they just don't discuss it nearly as much. Oh, and it's hard to say what percentage of AoDers watch fansubs, but it seems like the majority of them do. As for the bolded part, do you think people at AoD are paying anywhere near the retail price? Try looking at the retail forum. Everyone takes advantage of sales, specials and misprices. Because its the smart thing to do.
That's... a bizarre way of looking at it. Look at their General Anime forum (the equivalent of this anime forum here) and its pretty much the same. Except they have a lot more series discussion threads for shows being fansubbed. ANN currently has 3 or 4 that get posted in remotely regularly. AoD has at about 10, maybe more.
There is plenty of opportunity for discussion in the talkback forum (in response to reviews and columns like shelf life). Honestly, the only reason it appears more balanced at AoD is because they do far, far more reviews than ANN does. But the reviews themselves usually don't get much discussion unless there's a major issue or question about the release. There is little discussion about the actual shows in those threads. Meanwhile, there are huge threads for a dozen different series currently airing in Japan. At this point, from what you've said it seems like the only things that make AoD more 'anti-fansub' are that it A) has a lot more forums and topics and B) Chris has something in his signature related to it. Meanwhile, they have far more fansub discussion than we do. So that makes them more anti-fansub? That's... silly. It needs to be noted that the purpose of ANN and AoD is different, which means the things being discussed are going to be different. ANN is focused on news related to anime and manga in general. AoD is focused on the actual releases and various technical details. As a result, only people who actually care about purchasing legit DVDs are going to care about AoD and so, virtually 100% of their userbase buys some DVDs at some point (maybe a tiny % don't if they are their for the manga section). However, ANN is not so focused and general anime news is going to attract a lot of people that don't necessarily buy the DVDs. So of course AoD is going to get more discussion on the actual releases. But that still has no bearing on how "anti-fansub" either site is. |
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daxomni
Posts: 2650 Location: Somewhere else. |
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Buying it at cost doesn't seem all that supportive to me. I mean, are we real fans or just fair-weather fans? Many folks here get to enjoy their endless fansubs while I only get to see half of Kodocha even though in my mind I'm the one actually putting my money where my mouth is. It just seems like kind of a bad situation to me. But, there's obviously nothing that can be done to change that and apparently no will to change any of it anyway. Hopefully I'm just off base though and most anime fans in America just happen to dislike Kodocha. I could live with that a lot better than knowing they liked it but were just too damn stingy to actually pay for it.
My mindset is somewhere in between ANN and AoD, neither one is really a good match.
Just what exactly did you think "seems" was meant to imply dormcat? Did you somehow confuse my casual personal assessment with a term paper or something? I'm not writing a sanctioned article here. "Seems" is what practical people refer to as a "qualifier" and its primary purpose is to answer questions like yours before they're even asked.
Yes, I completely agree that most people at ANN buy a portion of the anime they watch on legitimate DVD, a very small portion, at a very discounted price.
Good, then let's just agree to disagree; I don't have enough energy to keep this up. It's not like this was really going to go anywhere anyway and I don't sense any compromise in the making. |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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It really depends. I'm currently watching fansubs for 13 series, give or take. At the prices I suggested, that would be $13-26 per week. If I could watch all those shows on a serivice for less than that for week (assuming the above points on quality and distribution) then I'd be fine with that. The problem would be that of those shows the rights are probably handled by about a half-dozen or more companies in Japan, and would be split between the 3-4 major US companies if released in the US, and they don't play nice with each other, so a more likely scenario is that there would be 3-4 different "channels" like that, each of them charging $5-10 per week, each of them only offering a handful of the shows I care to watch, along with a bunch of other lame shows that I couldn't care less about. Of course then you also have issues of "off weeks" that don't have episodes of certain shows, and "double weeks" that have doubles. Plus, I think I'd want to avoid paying for filler episodes of Bleach and One Piece just in general, even if they were offered at half price. Which they wouldn't be.
Yeah, it's not like I don't watch anime on tv just because I've seen the fansubs. I've rewatched every ep of Naruto, Bleach, FMA, Bebop, One Piece, etc. that ends up on CN, but not everything does, and most of those shows were/are released 12-48 months behind.
Better question is what should Viz do, release the filler, knowing it's horrible and will likely kneecap the franchise, or just show the good stuff? Personally, I think their best option is to skip the filler and roll right into Shippuden (which shouldn't happen for another year or so yet), and then offer the filler epsisodes in a softer timeslot as "Naruto Chronicles" or whatever, like they did when they skipped the middle of DBGT and then showed them later as "lost episodes".
Both are true. Most anime fans in America probably don't like Kodocha (assuming they've heard of it). It's a fun series, but it's fairly niche too, certainly no blockbuster. But also, a lot of people who watched fansubs of it probably didn't buy it, and being a niche product in the first place, that hurt it a lot more commercially than it would something like Bebop or FMA. But then, it's not a hugely fansubbed series either. I'm not really seeing it available anywhere now, and I only got ahold of the first 20-odd episodes back in the tape days. |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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They may be handled by several studios but they may run on a single CHANNEL. I'm saying make the equivalent of NBC (say NHK or TBS) available as a stream online, even if you have to delay broadcast on the stream channel to 6-12 hrs behind actual, that's minimal impact AND probably optimum to US anyway since Tokyo is about half a day off us in time zone anyway. As for what you watch, it's up to you if you want it badly enough. This is what the "phonebooks" in Japan are for. You might only want Shounen JUMP for Naruto, but you get Bleach, Eyeshield 21, etc. etc. and you may even find you LIKE 2 other series in there. Which EVENTUALLY makes it "win-win". If you're buying shows "a la carte" what are the odds you're going to buy a show you don't know. But if you're already paying for the channel, what're the odds that you'll watch a show you've never heard of because "who knows, it MIGHT be good, and I'm already paying for the channel anyway and have nothing better to do". (it's what I do with US cable TV all the time)
I think it's more a question of "too little, too late". Kodocha was big "back in the day", but the fans moved on and now when it's getting a release former fans just aren't that motivated. (In my opinion) Part of the reason Sailor Moon didn't quite see the sales it should have is because when they FINALLY released full series sets (or even all but a few episodes) the fans had moved on to other things. They loved it "back when" but now they were into other stuff and weren't gonna pay for something they liked several years ago simply out of "obligation". It'd be like if Bandai waited another five or so years and released Haruhi in 2012 or later. There are people that love it that will buy it anyway, but many people that would buy it NOW (whether they've watched it or not) aren't gonna feel that urge to buy it that much later. |
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HitokiriShadow
Posts: 6251 |
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The anime companies are probably getting the same amount for each copy regardless (some exceptions maybe, like if you are only buying at Bargain Bin/clearance sales). Regardless of where you get it, the anime companies are getting, at best, 50% of the MSRP. It's probably more like 30-40%. The rest goes to the stores and any middlemen that may be involved. There might be some variance or discounts of bigger bulk shipments for major anime retailers like RightStuf, but its probably very small difference (per disc). It's not like the companies are getting $17 per volume from Best Buy and $10 per volume from RightStuf. Basically, how much a fan is paying for their DVDs isn't going to make a difference. Waiting several years for the singles to be put on clearance (like the TRSI Bargain Bin) for everything or only buying boxsets instead of singles makes a difference, but I don't think very many people on either site do that for most or all of their purchases.
Kodocha failed because there was little support outside the hardcore fans and shoujo usually does poorly in America. It had nothing to do with how much any given fans chose to pay for their Kodocha DVDs. Waiting for boxsets instead of buying the singles may have had some effect, but I suspect that it was insignificant and even if those people had bought the singles, it wouldn't have been enough to safe Kodocha. Of course, its impossible to say either way since we don't know how well it actually sold or how much it needed to sell in order to justify releasing the second half.
But the fansubs for Kodocha weren't easy to find and most people probably never saw the fansubs or had an interest in it to begin with. |
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 7580 Location: Wales |
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Not buying something because you personally do not like (or are determined not to like) an audio track that you don't have to listen to is not an excuse. Or do you think it is perfectly fine to download an album off the internet rather than buy it because you don't like all of the tracks on it? Dub-only discs are an extreme minority (mostly consisting of shows where the target audience is children who on the whole are unlikely to appreciate subtitles) and an endangered species even here in the UK. "Original Japanese with subtitles" is not only common but the norm, unless you are incapable of navigating a DVD menu or pressing the audio button on the remote. May I also recommend some Bandai Visual titles which don't even have the inconvenience of a dub at all.. but oh dear, they would conflict with your first two points (expensive, and only two episodes per disc)
I really don't understand what you are getting at here. Do you walk into a random film at the cinema, knowing nothing about it, then complain because you didn't like it? I imagine not. You will probably have seen trailers or listed to what others had to say about it. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
Posts: 6896 Location: Kazune City |
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But the Media-Blasters sub-only DVDs are selling for cheaper than standard dual-language DVDs. Bandai Visual is just being...Bandai Visual. Still, I'd agree that "the dub is bad, so I won't buy it" isn't an excuse. I considered using that excuse for series like Crest/Banner of the Stars, but since I found it easy enough to completely ignore the English audio tracks on Love Hina and Fantastic Children, I figured I could do so for those series as well. The more dual-language DVDs we buy, the more we support funding better dubs, as in ones not done in Singapore.
Still, I see this "dubbing ruins anime" argument a lot...on one of the many Lucky Star threads on /c/. someone said, "Man, they really need to hurry up and show this on Adult Swim" and Anonymous replied "Or you could just download it like the rest of us before it gets ruined by dubbing." Adult Swim is one thing, but people seem to forget that when ADV or whoever releases it, it'll still have a Japanese track with subtitles |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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How do people know that Kodocha failed?
For that matter, how do people ever know that any particular anime "failed" in the US market? To me, the only way to know about this is to look at DVD and manga sales figures, which companies do not usually report as far as I know. How often Kodocha is discussed is not necessarily any indication of how well the show has done. The people who discuss anime tend to be heavy fansub-watchers, and it is arguable exactly what fraction of the anime DVD buyers are comprised of heavy fansub-watchers. To be honest, I would argue that it is 10% or less, but I have little way to prove or disprove that figure. It's just what I feel from observing and talking to people who I actually see buying anime in real life stores (which is not necessarily a perfect way either, as many people buy anime online as well and the viewer distribution may be different there). For example, so far Haruhi has probably failed in the USA. But that's not what I see people saying. People think it is doing great because the fansub community loves it. But I do not see that reflected in store sales at all. It will be easier to judge how well Haruhi is doing in the USA when volume 3 comes out. One need only count how many copies of Haruhi Vol 3 any given Best Buy or Suncoast orders and compare with how many copies of Fate Stay Night Vol 5 or Karin Vol 3 are ordered, for example. That gives an idea of how well Haruhi does in the USA, not whether online people say they like it or not. In the case of Kodocha, it's also shown for free on TV on Funimation channel every day. So it's impossible to say how well it is doing, really. The fact that it is shown so often on TV makes me think it is doing relatively well. |
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cookie
Former ANN Editor in Chief
Posts: 2460 Location: Do not contact me for support. |
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Guys, please keep this thread on the topic of ANN's stance on the industry and on fansubs, not comparing and contrasting AoD and ANN's forums, readership, etc.
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daxomni
Posts: 2650 Location: Somewhere else. |
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No need to be concerned. Just in case I haven't made myself entirely clear, I'm completely done discussing this. No, really, I've completely given up. There is absolutely nothing I could ever say or do that would have any impact whatsoever on the continued use of fansubs or on the number of DVD purchases or on any other aspect of the anime market or on ANN's stance or anything else. Outside of the Studio Ghibli line, the majority of my favorite titles have apparently been somewhere between outright failures and borderline failures. There is nothing that will ever change that during my lifetime so I'm willing to just let it go. Hopefully that will be enough to put this little controversy to rest from here on out. At the risk of repeating myself here is a quote from my last post.
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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Well that's what freebies are for. If I'm paying for a channel of 20 shows, and only like 5 of them, then I'd consider that a bit of a waste, and don't have time to watch shows that I don't enjoy, so the other shows wouldn't mean much to me. Rather than that, I'd prefer to pay for the shows I DO want, and have some method of getting at least a couple episodes of new shows for free to, as you say, try them out, and then if I do enjoy them, buy them. I really don't buy any entertainment without watching some of it first if I can in any way help it.
This is true. Kinda. The problem is, if you only buy anime at a discount, then the stores don't feel that THEY are getting their money's worth out of selling anime. They take a big hit on any DVD sold at or near cost, because they get almost no profit, and had to hold that DVD on the shelves for a while, which annoys the hell out of them. And if they don't feel they are getting their money's worth, they won't stock as much of it. And if they don't stock as much of it, then the anime company doesn't get as much money. So basically, if you only buy anime at the minimum price possible, you ARE hurting the industry relative to those who pay full price, you ARe cutting directly into the anime companies' profit margins.
Who doesn't? You shouldn't have to pay for songs you don't enjoy.
If I'm uncertain about whether I'll enjoy a movie, and downloading it is not an option, I might attend a matene showing, which is about 3/4 price. But even at full price, going to the movies (for a single person at least) is cheaper than most anime buy-ins. Trailers and word of mouth is not enough information to make an informed purchase on, at least not more than a few bucks. |
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ultrapostman
Posts: 164 Location: New Jersey. Don't you just love traffic circles? |
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I probably shouldn't say anything because I don't watch Kodocha, but I think that people think Kodocha failed because the second half of the series hasn't been licensed. In general, I think alot of people see anime series do great in Japan, but when it gets here the reception is disappointing. Thus they consider the series to have failed because it didn't meet their expectations, although aforementioned expectations may have been unreasonable. So you're right that you can't always prove that a series has failed, but fans tend to adopt a pessimistic view anyway. |
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