Forum - View topicPlanetes (TV).
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7994 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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If you want to know what I think, it's that you've already been successfully debunked to my satisfaction and that you're being irrational and unreasonable in blaming a show because it didn't conform to your expectations or inflexible master plan for the future. You are unable to differentiate a fault in the show from a fault in yourself. |
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MaxSouth
Posts: 1364 |
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Key
If you mean Flag (ONA), I did not watch it. Do you mention it because this show is a more consistent case of realism or, on the contrary, is much worse than this anime? I am generally "afraid" of anime where theme category has "mecha" in it because I hate ridiculous nonsense of never-locked giant flying robots that always gets stolen by children in Gundam series. It is so outrageously preposterous that I only thing I want to do after seeing those scenes is to face-palm and turn the player off. As to giving license: how much pass I can give depends on how high the show is regarded and rated. For example, I was just as merciless towards Lost Universe about its flaws, I listed all of them, however, I was not disappointed as much as with this anime since my expectations were pretty low. After watching that anime, I wanted to watch something better, and ratings for Planetes is way higher. As it turns out, the reason for that is mostly dramatic content, and while I can appreciate the fact it is much better, indeed, it is placed into poorly developed scenery that does not allow me submerge into the story as the settings are not believable. I still did not hate this anime and watched it with some pleasure, but, you are right, the enjoyment from it was significantly tampered. There are few anime where settings are realistic/consistent enough not to distract from drama, in those cases I am capable of nearly fully enjoy anime. This Planetes anime is not such case. As I wrote before, films/anime about the future is the hardest genre in terms of making setting believable. It would require giant effort to create very carefully thought out vision of future that would make sense. This anime does not really has that effort -- here is full list of issues I documented while wathing all of Planetes' episodes (not formatted) -- it got very long (62 points), but I do not want to over-post by making multiple posts from it: spoiler[planetes the premise is about space debris, but by 2075, the time of setting, this issue would be already resolved (a fully automated process would be active: satellites with electromagnets and other methods would grab the garbage) by 2075 there will be no need for cosmonauts or astronauts at all, everything is going to be fully robotic Data will get to navigational matrix on its own, there is no need for manual operator for that -- it is space control center of 2075, not 1975. Though even by 1968 (computers were already used in both USSR and USA space centres, it was not manual at the time either) Japanese workers that are prepared for jobs with international setting perfectly know the etiquette: they will not scream while they are presenting themselves such clumsy empty-head character as presented would never pass to be in space, even by lax standards of 2075 and yes, astronauts (even though they will not be necessary) will be taught to confirm they got a message debris-cleaning operations will not be held just 58 minutes before fatal crush with a satellite, it would be done earlier doubtful that paper magazines will still exist by that time interiers of spaceships will not look that industrial] spoiler[spacesuits will not require any manual operations to be navigable (no need to guess the force of little gas thrusts that are used to position space-suit in space) doubtful that fashion style in 2070s will still be the same as in 2000s passenger spaceship to Jupiter would not need actual piloting, the flight is going to be fully automated -- if it would be feasible for passenger use, considering how long the travel would take even with the speediest engines that can be foreseen to be believable for that time before entering actual space, astronauts do multiple virtual tests of whole operation, so there can be nothing "unexpected" in terms of what the object is and how it behaves, unlike what is shown in this anime -- but if authors would follow "sci" part of this, there would be no drama] spoiler[spaceship would calculate the orbits of the nearby debris and automatically evade it gravitation will not be recreated yet (if ever) by that time; rotation will not able to recreate Earth conditions as people would feel while they walk that either they are descending, or ascending, or leaning to either side depending on which direction they walk inside such rotating space station. Besides, even with those side effects, "gravitation" will be way below G as otherwise it would require much faster rotation that would make you sick because of inner ear signals there is not way people would still use pen and paper to write a testament/will space activities are obligatory insured already for a long time by now, there is no way to suggest it would be lifted by 2075 there is no reason to force people to update their wills/testaments every year unless the coffin with an astronaut was initially pushed with certain orbital/circular/angular torque, it would not return back to Earth in just fifty years] spoiler[by 2075 astronauts relatives would not be using wheel chairs any more; if not cured, they will be using robotic exoskeletons main heroine thinks that dead body could have change of mind on whether to be "buried" in space or go back to Earth by 2075 humanity will not be still using thick notebooks and 3.5" diskettes there will be no giant heavy work data books, no waste of materials and space is needed there would be no need for photo camera for astronauts since everything they see will be recorded anyway astronauts are taught to move in state of weightlessness while still on Earth, not right in the space there will be no need for money purses somehow no one has communication devices outside of space-suit operations] spoiler[children would not be lost as parents would have way to locate where their child is spaceship team would not need confiscated video to track purse theif -- everything is videorecorded anyway; there would not be such thief at all as he would know that he would be caught quite quickly i hope cola will ber no more=smoking no huge building on moon no need to ask others for photos, selfie stick there will be no need to search patients as they all will have devices on them leukaemia will not a threat any more: both because of better protection in space and medical advancements leukaemia's symptoms do not include coughing blood ill astronauts would not be allowed to be active, would be forced to medical leave astronauts with a severe psychological traumas, PTSD are forced to medical leave] spoiler[smoking is disgusting and will be absolutely prohibited in any non-special places, unlike what is shown in some of episodes there will be no need for anyone to work in mines, including on the Moon, everything is going to be robotic there would be no need to print out photographs and bring it to each other there were many openings with main hero running at the viewer there would be no way to enter a private cabin without some ID pass/lock (biometric or otherwise), so none of characters would be surprised oversized/shapeless clothes are left-overs of 1990s there will be no 1990s-style wired desk phones fast-flying debris makes holes, but does not all of sudden push a spaceship into atmosphere astronauts are not allowed to get super drink the day before they have open space work rockets would be forbidden to launch without permission as it dangerous for planes] spoiler[projectors for screens will not be used there will be no need to ask approval of parents for to marry the future has never looked less promising after this story where a girlfriend does not have sex with her boyfriend for 1.5 months -- sex has to be the easiest and most natural thing ever, not something to "to knock up the prices" or "blackmail" on each other. there will be no need to print out route map to go to debris department there is no reason for the main lad to go to Jupiter, giving up on his girl friend. There are countless lonely contenders who can do the job without dropping their girlfriends/boyfriends. Humanity and its progress would not suffer at all if main lad would stay with his girlfriend. So lad's decision is quite petty and selfish in this regard. Besides, there as no point in retiring just to be contender among 1000 people -- you just arrange a vacation for that, keeping the job for case of failure. there would be no need for to ask for friend's hotel phone number as personal communication devices would provide this service] spoiler[there will be no police patrolling, there will be robots for that heavy things will not be dragged by humans, robots will do it the main lad got bipolar disorder after such significant psychopathic breakdowns, main lad would be replaced in Jupiter team main lad is in full of self-pity about his loneliness, but it was his own wilful doing; stupid to complain about it the turn that the lad did not kill anyone is not good, authors got easy] spoiler[when main lad and his girlfriend got together, they should have sex for pleasure and to conceive a child; also, the lad had to arrange his sperm for another child in couple of years after that, and maybe another one in two years. When he would return, he would have 6, 4, 2 years old children the idea that federation would just honestly obey the deal with terrorist about fair resources is ridiculous the idea that fake firm that is controlled and owned by big one would register key patents to itself or any other way that would limit the power of mother corporation is not feasible ________________________________ authors have dignity, coming from a first world country themselves, to tell as story of continuous imperialism and colonization of the powerful at the expense of powerless good characters no stupid nationalistic cliche (Russian is not drunk all the time)] Last edited by MaxSouth on Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
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^ Maxsouth, for a technological whiz kid you sure seem to miss the obvious a lot.
#1: don't put a spoiler tag around text so large it can't fit on one screen. If I am seeking to be enlightened by your incredible insights into How Things Are Going To Be I can't read it all because the trigger to re-color the text is off the screen. Get it? Use multiple spoiler tags if you must do this. spoiler[Yes I know I can click and drag over the text to read it but why should I?] [EDIT: Saw you fixed this thanks.] #2. The predictions of the future game has been going on a long long time and accurate predictions are exceedingly rare, even when done by people much more qualified to do it than you. For example these guys. Sure individual predictions turn out to be remarkably prescient (Robert Heinlein described the cell phone well before 1960) but mostly it is like shooting birdshot at a chain link fence. Only a small percentage of the shot will hit it. #3. Your birdshot is unconvincing. No astronauts, total automation here and there, pen and paper doesn't exist and yadda yadda. There is no evidence and no precedent for these kinds of predictions having a high probability of happening. I don't want to say any specific thing you wrote WONT be actually what happens in the future because it could, but in almost every case I could come up with an alternate path where your prediction is flat out wrong that is equally plausible. We could argue all day about it and it just comes down to opinion. The difference between you and me though is I can separate my opinions and predictions from objective facts. Regardless of all that thanks for the post. |
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MaxSouth
Posts: 1364 |
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HaruhiToy
1) sorry about that; I only split the text into multiple spoliers later; 2) yes, most of previous prognosis on future is ridiculous. But I am always highly sceptical and never believed in flying cars or other unreasonable things to happen anywhere as soon as suggested. However, since I care deeply about technology, I can discern realistic and non-realistic things -- for example, I always knew that blinking tube TVs from Akira anime is insulting nonsense, and I am saddened that authors of this film did not care to think about it. 3) (continuing from #2) This is why my estimations are pretty conservative. For example, I am not saying that there will be artificial intelligence created by 2075, nor I am saying there will be bases on other planets (or even on the Moon, though it is more probable). Most of my technical issues come from basic things that go away already now -- like wired phones, paper magazines, thick notebooks with 3.5" disk drives -- everything that authors just did not care to think about it. This is sloppy work, not a high quality production in term of setting. Prognosis that space debris issue will be resolved through robotic automation or other means that do not involve humans is also very basic. Even now software allows to create (semi) autonomous mechanisms that complete similar tasks, there is no reason to suggest that it would be impossible to collect garbage in space without human effort. (Remember that back in 1988 (!) Soviet (!) version of space shuttle called Buran has made couple of space flights in fully robotic automatic mode -- being managed on-the-fly only by its onboard software that was ran on onboard computers, without any human involvement.) The only significant example where NASA/JAXA consultancy has worked is rotation method of creating pseudo gravity. As I explained in the text within spoiler tags, it was not depicted realistically, but I am glad that authors at least were informed that such concept for creating "gravity" exists. Though, being sceptical, I doubt this method would be good enough, and I explained, why. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18459 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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That does not apply to Flag. The pilots are all highly-trained professional (adult) soldiers. Nobody is stealing any mecha to be a hotshot. The mecha have no special powers and do not use equipment or weaponry significantly beyond current tech levels. They do not jump, fly, or move with human nimbleness, and (as near as I could tell, anyway) they obey the laws of physics. Really, I think you'd have to seriously work at it to poke holes in its realism, beyond how some of the on-screen effects you see around the borders (the whole series is done documentary-style) would be exorcised from actual saved-off video recordings. As for your long, sometimes repetitive critique of the supposed faults of Planetes, all I'll say is that an awful lot of that is based on thinly-substantiated assumptions, the kind of thing that you are constantly complaining about as signs of lack of realism in series. You also seem to be entirely ignoring two points: 1) dramatic license, and 2) that any sci fi series - no matter how ardent it is at trying to predict the future - is going to be influenced at least some by the time period in which it is made because it's impossible to accurately predict things like hair and clothing styles. Also, you seem to be assuming that the future will be entirely ruled by practicality and thus devoid of any human factor. That is particularly an issue in the matter about spoiler[the MC going to Jupiter. Of course he doesn't need to be going; but he badly wants to and his wife supports him on that.] Not sure why it's so hard to accept that. |
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Shenl742
Posts: 1525 |
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Granted it's been 8 or so years since I saw Planetes and that was only the first few dvds, but my enjoyment of it was really stymied by the abrupt shifts in tone between really thoughtful sci-fi and total goofballness.
I mean....one episode had a really great episode about the main character encountering a young woman on a moon station who it turned out spoiler[could never leave the place since she was accidently conceived in low gravity, and thus her body adapted to the point where any other environment would be fatal to her]. That's some good stuff. That's some really smart, emotionally resonating stuff. ...the episode before that though? Silly wanneb-ninja-cosplayers on the moon. That's just way too much of a left turn for me. My brain couldn't take it. I think an earlier episode also dealt with some kind of hostage situation on a spaceport...and some people were also filming an amateur werewolf also and the two plots converged and I just thought "what am I watching?" If there was one "unrealistic" thing that bothered me it was the fact that in the first episode Ai went on her first space mission with seemingly zero knowledge about how space works, despite how dangerous and complex an environment it is, all for the purpose of giving the audience exposition. I realize that they're trying to establish the idea that space exploration has been really normalized to the point that collecting trash has become a blue-collar job, but I just think it's a lazy writing technique, and perhaps a big personal bias for me since I've actually gone to very dangerous places (war zones) in my career and the MONTHS of redundant preparation they pound into you before they think you're ready to actually get your hands dirty. The same thing happened in the beginning of Psycho-Pass and it's just soured my enthusiasm to watch past episode 2. Just...I know it |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18459 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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This is hardly a problem specific to this series (mecha series are especially notorious on this) or even anime in general, though. It's just a storytelling convenience that has to be put up with, which is why I (as a teacher) don't usually bother complaining about all of the anime which imply that anyone could walk in off the street and be a competent teacher right from the get-go. |
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Shenl742
Posts: 1525 |
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Oh I agree that it's something that's problematic everywhere, I just find it tiresome and there are probably much more organic ways to get through that necessary exposition (starting the series in or even just flashing back to the character in school or training sequences). In some ways I think I actually prefer the "falling into the cockpit" cliché of mecha, because at least that can portray a more immediate sense of urgency then having a character be actually assigned a mission.
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MaxSouth
Posts: 1364 |
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Key: thanks for explanation of Flag (ONA), I will try it.
As to Jupiter flights, I agree that there is irrational, emotional reasons for that. You are right, not everything is driven by logic and rationale. But I am sceptical that "world government" would be able to finance such effort; not worth it. As to giving out creative license: I am not giving it in the science part of "sci-fi" genre. I was writing before, if authors can not come up with coherent and logical scientific fiction, they should switch to fantasy genre -- there is no "science" word in it, they can go with magic. Requirements for the setting in sci-fi are much higher than for any other genre. Shenl742: the example you gave is a sing of poor storytelling. High-class work would not use such face-palmy ways to make "world-building". Authors had to undertake better effort to make it better. (As well as with the settings where they put corded phones and 3.5" diskettes in 2075, among countless other nonsense.) Last edited by MaxSouth on Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yuna49
 Posts: 3804 |
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Or you could take the approach of Uchuu Kyoudai and focus on the training itself for dozens of episodes. Of course, most anime series don't have the luxury of 99-episode runs. |
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Animegomaniac
Posts: 4159 |
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Almost, but not quite, as dangerous as walking down the street.... and having your lungs fail to work then getting hit by a car and then so and on. Stay inside, it's safer. In more seriousness, the most dangerous aspects of space travel is Earth, actually. Once you take out lift offs and reentry of the equation, it's a pressurized commercial jetliner that has radiation shielding and weightlessness- and what's the first to go in most Sci-Fi stories? Oh, 2001? Never heard of it, watched it or admired how it produced AG. Maxsouth- Magnets? Well, that would take care of the metal with magnetic properties. That Planetes screw was steel, probably, so problem solved. Aluminum or nickle? Doesn't exist in space. Plastic? Useless. Heat retardant ceramic shielding? Myth. Even if it did exist, what in space could knock if off a ship? With Planetes, I could complain about the choices the humans make such as, for instance, spoiler[traveling to Jupiter on a decade long mission even after learning your wife is pregnant.]. That mission is humanity's job, your responsibility is more localized to your own life. But that choice is countered by what Ai did in the second to last episode- Love redeems and saves, how romantic. For that alone, I love the series and I spent the last episode yelling spoiler[is Ai dead or not!?] Always a good sign as to how invested I am with a series. Its Science? It's fine as its fiction. Or for it's fiction. One of those, take your pick. |
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Crisha
Moderator
 Posts: 4290 |
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Anime Marathon Discussion (Nov. 6th, 2015 - Nov. 15th, 2015)
Spoilers Reminder for Marathon Discussion: Tag all spoilers within your post(s) and record the episode number(s) you're discussing at the top of your post. |
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One-Eye
 Posts: 2267 |
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Marathon Episodes 1 & 2 (Outside the Atmosphere, Like A Dream):
I've had the Bandai Complete Collection sitting on my shelf for several years. It was a blind buy based on some positive reviews, which I don't remember now, so its another show I'm watching that I'm kind of going in blind. Hopefully it will be a pleasant surprise. The first place my mind went when watching this was Garbage Collectors in Space!! (Deep voice and echo) My next thought was the 1970's comedy show Quark, which was also about garbage collectors but mostly made fun of shows and movies like Star Trek and Star Wars (yes, I'm that old). However, Planetes in the first 2 episodes is more of a slice of life drama that happens to be in space and space junk is a serious business. It almost feels like some of this could be happening in an office building in a company somewhere. The first 2 episodes so far have been set-up. We are introduced to the quirky crew of "half-section" and the two principal characters of Hachi and Tanabe. Hachi is the somewhat temperamental and frustrated senior to Tanabe's young idealistic rookie. Sparks fly, but the characters have good chemistry. Hachi spoiler[underneath his gruff exterior is brave and has a kind streak]. Tanabe's spoiler[inexperience partially hides her determined and go get them attitude. She takes extra lessons from Hachi on her days off to get better at her job]. The Dub works for some characters for others it sounds stilted (Yuri). There are some nice details so far like the fact that they spoiler[custom create parts of the space suit (the hands), but other parts they don't because of the cost and its a one-size fits all situation (space suit)]. Plus the fact that its "half-section" all points to corporate cost-cutting. Again some of this could be taking place in a company on the ground not just orbit. spoiler[The VR (sort of) space helmets was kind of cool idea and it feels like tech that could be around the corner. Having a face plate to protect the helmet from debris is also another nice little detail that feels appropiate to setting and worldbuilding]. Amid the introduction in these two episodes of the characters and their dreams is also other jems spoiler[like a swipe at corporate spin and messaging with the memorial satellite that they have to junk for the sake of a military satellite]. So far the first 2 episodes are intelligent and well told. I look forward to more. |
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One-Eye
Posts: 2267 |
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Marathon Episodes 3, 4 & 5 (Return Trajectory, Part of the Job, Fly Me to the Moon):
This set of episodes seems to want the viewer to connect with what's important in life. In ep 3 ambition spoiler[takes its toll on an astronaut and his family. It is only once that his funeral casket returns to earth and is reunited with his now aged daughter can there be closure]. In ep 4 the spoiler[greed and self-entitlement of the privileged challenge the crew. They rally together by taking pride in their work]. Finally, in ep5 one of the messages spoiler[is to cherish the ones that you love and to cherish your own life]. Its human feelings and human life that is important even in the vastness of space. It is what connects us and keeps us grounded, so to speak. 
Well that's it for the first disc. |
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One-Eye
Posts: 2267 |
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Marathon Episodes 6-10: Lunar Flying Squirrels, Extraterrestrial Girl, A Place To Cling To, Regrets, A Sky of Stardust.
A comedy episode and a few episodes dealing with the backgrounds of some of the characters. Small details are nice like the fact that there are bars everywhere on the ships and stations for people in low-grav to hold onto with either hands or feet. Small quick camera shots of characters feet/boots hooking these bars is cool reminder of the adjustments that have to be made living in space. It also becomes natural for people after time. Good stuff. Also spoiler[the lunar girl who is taller than Hachi even though she's only 12 due to having been born on the moon]. However, something the series seems to float out there is that no matter what space is still a harsh mistress (to paraphrase a bit) and do we really belong out there? People are enchanted with this final frontier, they marvel at the beauty of the earth from space and they take pride in calling themselves astronauts. However, many are separated from their loved ones on earth, a small mistake can have deadly consequences and lifespans can be short. spoiler[There's been more than one character come down with cancer due to the radiation in space. Radiation is a real danger]. Outside this show there have been recent discussions about what it would take to colonize Mars and the challenges. Due to radiation and other risks people's lifespans would be much shorter at current levels of technology. Its a humbling thing the enormity of risk and challenge beyond our atmosphere. |
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