View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
|
lithele
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 1
|
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:29 pm
|
|
|
I completely agree with the review--however, I wanted to point out that Peppo (which I have seen romanized as Beppo) is also in the novel (though with much less emphasis than in the show), in chapter 37:
"What!" exclaimed Franz, "the peasant girl who snatched his mocoletto from him" --
"Was a lad of fifteen," replied Peppino. "But it was no disgrace to your friend to have been deceived; Beppo has taken in plenty of others."
|
Back to top |
|
|
Strategos
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 91
Location: Ohio
|
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:28 pm
|
|
|
I guess I am the only one that finds the visuals more distracting than "awe-inspiring". Granted, there are other reasons why I don't really care for the series too much (I find it incredibly over-dramatic to the point of absurdity), but most of the reviews I have seen have gone ape over the "incredible" visuals.
The series is intended for a mature audience and I do recommend trying it out, but just don't be surprised if you don't care for it, or really like it, as in many people's cases.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tony K.
Subscriber
Moderator
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 11446
Location: Frisco, TX
|
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:56 pm
|
|
|
Strategos wrote: | I guess I am the only one that finds the visuals more distracting than "awe-inspiring". Granted, there are other reasons why I don't really care for the series too much (I find it incredibly over-dramatic to the point of absurdity), but most of the reviews I have seen have gone ape over the "incredible" visuals. |
I found the visuals to be more unique than anything else. Granted, after watching the whole series, taking off a few days for the story to not be as fresh in my mind, then watching the first DVD, I found it to be a pretty spectacular art technique. It's just something I'm not used to seeing, so it felt very refreshing, especially given the context of the story and the way it was adapted.
As for the series feeling overly dramatized, that is to be expected if you've read the original novel. If you haven't read it, then I suppose it's up to your own personal tastes of what you consider good or "absurd" drama, as I feel this series will be better recieved by those who already know the story.
Key wrote: | The Japanese dub is clearly the better-acted of the two, but beyond the Count it suffers some from casting which sounds too distinctly Japanese for the roles of European aristocrats. Though not glaringly obvious, the effect is akin to hearing American actors voice over the roles of Chinese characters in competent dubs of Hong Kong martial arts movies. Arguments about how listening to the Japanese dub still allows a viewer to hear the series “as it was originally intended” don’t hold water here since this isn’t a Japanese story to begin with. |
That's a bit of an unfair statement to make. People adapting content from other cultures should be given the benefit of the doubt, regardless of whether or not you're fluent in speaking/understanding or just reading subtitles translated from a said language.
If we were to interpret dubs by the people that are casted for characters fitting a certain ethnicity, then a lot of English dubs should suffer because most anime take place in Japan with Japanese characters. And last I checked, a lot of the English VAs I hear don't sound Japanese.
That's why it's called an adaptation. Just like how U.S. companies translate Japanese content into English, the producers of Gankutsuou translated a French work into Japanese.
Anyway, cultural subtlties aside, I feel the Japanese voices were perfectly cast for each character. A lot of their sounds really seem to fit the characters' personalities in terms of emotional inflection and delivery, especially the always majestic sounding Kikuko Inoue. I can't think of a better Mercédès .
Trust me, if you were to watch this entire series all the way through in Japanese, you'd probably hear why, sooner or later.
|
Back to top |
|
|
mufurc
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 612
|
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:36 pm
|
|
|
Tony K. wrote: | That's why it's called an adaptation. Just like how U.S. companies translate Japanese content into English, the producers of Gankutsuou translated a French work into Japanese. |
Not to mention that aside from being an adaptation, Gankutsuou has quite a lot of Japanese-ness in it, deliberately or not. In quite a few aspects it's a lot like classic shoujo manga, what with Albert's "akogare" for an older, more adult and classy person, who, unbeknownst to Albert, has a troubled background and personality, the characters' melodramatic reactions to things, etc, etc. (Funny thing is, to me, Gankutsuou "feels" a lot like classic yuri manga.) It may be an adaptation of a French novel, but it's very much rooted in Japanese traditions.
And yeah, the original novel is incredibly melodramatic, too. In fact, pretty much everything in the show is done in spirit of the novel, whether it is actually in the novel or not. (Except the whole deal with Franz - I found that incredibly annoying and superfluous. Why does Franz have to be in love with Albert? Why couldn't they be just best friends? Everything Franz does later he could've also done as a best friend.)
Also, a correction:
Quote: | while still retaining much of the essence of 18th century France |
19th century, actually.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Key
Moderator
Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18459
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
|
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:35 pm
|
|
|
Tony K. wrote: | That's a bit of an unfair statement to make. People adapting content from other cultures should be given the benefit of the doubt, regardless of whether or not you're fluent in speaking/understanding or just reading subtitles translated from a said language. |
Try that argument on purists concerning English dubs of anime. It's basically the same situation, which is why I didn't feel it was an unfair statement. I should probably also mention that the apparent Japanese devotion towards always making their productions sound distinctly Japanese even if set in a different culture has long been a pet peeve of mine. (Hellsing, for instance; it's set almost entirely in Great Britain but sounds purely Japanese in the Japanese audio tracks, which is why I won't watch that series subbed. At least the English dub made an effort. Same for Yugo the Negotiator's Pakistani arc.)
mufurc wrote: | Not to mention that aside from being an adaptation, Gankutsuou has quite a lot of Japanese-ness in it, deliberately or not. In quite a few aspects it's a lot like classic shoujo manga, what with Albert's "akogare" for an older, more adult and classy person, who, unbeknownst to Albert, has a troubled background and personality, the characters' melodramatic reactions to things, etc, etc. (Funny thing is, to me, Gankutsuou "feels" a lot like classic yuri manga.) It may be an adaptation of a French novel, but it's very much rooted in Japanese traditions. |
I think that's more of a coincidence than anything, though. Any Japanese cultural influence worked into this production so far is very, very subtle.
Quote: | Also, a correction:
Quote:
while still retaining much of the essence of 18th century France
19th century, actually. |
And here I always thought that story was set in the late 18th century. That was the one detail I didn't double-check.
|
Back to top |
|
|
dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9902
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC
|
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:18 pm
|
|
|
Key wrote: |
Tony K. wrote: | 19th century, actually. |
And here I always thought that story was set in the late 18th century. That was the one detail I didn't double-check. |
Everything started when Edmond got arrested and accused of smuggling a letter for Napoleon Bonaparte, then being exiled on l'île d'Elbe (which was near the end of his career). Napoleon was only a low-rank artillery officer at the end of 18th century (soon after the French revolution in 1789), and was almost always victorious until he attacked Russia in 1812.
After sneaking back from l'île d'Elbe to France, he regrouped his men but got totally defeated at Waterloo.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tony K.
Subscriber
Moderator
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 11446
Location: Frisco, TX
|
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:17 pm
|
|
|
Key wrote: | Try that argument on purists concerning English dubs of anime. It's basically the same situation, which is why I didn't feel it was an unfair statement. |
Well, it can't really be helped since the opinions of purists are just that; opinion. Evidently, they also feel the need to defend their stances to a degree beyond logic, but that's their problem, and you're better than that, right?
Anyway, it's good that you acknowledge both tracks for their own merits, but it should kind of be obvious that a title dubbed in any langauge will come off as sounding like a production geared towards that particular audience (i.e. English language for English audience, Japanese for Japanese, Mandarin/Cantonese for Chinese, etc.).
The fact that it was made in Japan and sounds Japanese shouldn't be a deterrent in analyzing a seiyuu's performance. Although, I know it's probably difficult to accept that argument with so many ardent purists out there doing the exact opposite and being unfair with English dubs, but I tend to think of that more so as a clash of preferences, rather than a critique of each actor's accomplishments (or sometimes lack there of).
(*sigh*) But then again, it's difficult to not compare the two since a lot of reviews already have some opinion incorporated into them. Oh well, other than that, great job on the review, overall . I especially like your emphasis on the aspects of the artwork.
Key wrote: | I should probably also mention that the apparent Japanese devotion towards always making their productions sound distinctly Japanese even if set in a different culture has long been a pet peeve of mine. (Hellsing, for instance; it's set almost entirely in Great Britain but sounds purely Japanese in the Japanese audio tracks, which is why I won't watch that series subbed. At least the English dub made an effort. Same for Yugo the Negotiator's Pakistani arc.) |
Good point. I just recently started watching Master Keaton and a lot of the episodes take place in various European countries (Great Britain, Germany, Scotland, and I think one episode was in Russia).
And being a big fan of Ocean Studios, I alternate between the English and Japanese dubs every other episode (for variety and because I enjoy the Ocean voices) and find them both very enjoyable. Some of the European accents really sound fake at times (especially the Scottish ones), though, they pretty much got the jist of those distinctions for the English track.
I think part of the problem that lies in the Japanese written material taking place in foreign cultures, then sounding better in English is the fact that the English language is so prominent around the world.
Sure, the people that made Hellsing (location: England), Yugo the Negotiator (Pakistan and Russia), or Monster (Germany and what was then Czechoslovakia) were Japanese, but it's not like a Japanese person can really imitate any of the natural accents in those countries, even if they've heard it a milllion times.
With English being so dominant and real people from those countries actually knowing some (English, that is), it's a little easier to adapt the original Japanese dubs with accented English voice overs (for whatever foreign culture that's being adapted) because a lot of us can say we know what it should sound like after living in the giant melting pot that is the U.S. It's like having you or me imitate a British, Pakistani, or heaven forbid, the stereotypical Engrish accent for Asian people.
You can't really blame the Japanese for making a non-Japanese influenced work sound unnatural because Japanese is Japanese, where as English has sort of an advantage in its worldly influence.
In any case, I think all of this typing is starting to wear out my eyes, which then leads to wearing out my brain, so I'll stop there for now. Hope this is making some sort of sense .
|
Back to top |
|
|
mufurc
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 612
|
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:17 am
|
|
|
Key wrote: | I think that's more of a coincidence than anything, though. Any Japanese cultural influence worked into this production so far is very, very subtle. |
Well, this version of Haydée doesn't wear a kimono(-like robe) for nothing... Anyway, I don't know how much you have seen of Gankutsuou, but it's by no means a faithful adaptation of the novel. Relationships will change, characters will become quite different from their novel counterparts, and even the main story will take a turn in a completely different direction than the novel (which is not a bad thing at all, by the way). In the end, Gankutsuou is more of a quasi-bildungsroman for Albert than a revenge story, which, together with all other similarities that I've mentioned (and others I didn't, considering they're spoilers), further strengthens its 'feel' as a classic shoujo drama. Of course, it very well may be unintentional (at least I don't think Maeda went "okay, let's adapt Monte Cristo as a shoujo manga!"), but the similarities are there, nevertheless - in fact, it was Japanese fans themselves who brought them to my attention.
Key wrote: | I should probably also mention that the apparent Japanese devotion towards always making their productions sound distinctly Japanese even if set in a different culture has long been a pet peeve of mine. |
I think one reason for this is that anime and manga usually don't really go for realism. I mean, in most anime/manga the foreign settings are there only for the sake of giving the story an exotic background, not for any realistic representation of the foreign culture in question. Also, in most cases it's assumed that the characters speak in a different language, only translated to Japanese, along with all speech patterns and dialects.
Another reason may be that while accents and dialects of a language are important for native speakers, they usually don't do anything for foreigners. As someone for whom English is a second language, I can hardly differentiate between, say, northern and southern American dialects, and even when I notice a difference I still fail to appreciate it because I don't get what it implies. For me, a Hungarian dub of a foreign movie that tries to reproduce the differences between regional dialects would be rather distracting because that's one thing I don't find important enough to care about.
As for accents, one example is the TV series 'Allo 'Allo which features German, French and English characters, all of whom speak English with accent (except for the English, naturally). This was mostly taken out from the Hungarian dub because, quite simply, it wouldn't have translated well to Hungarian. It's very funny if one watches it in English, because English "has a thing" for accents and dialects. But in Hungarian it would be distracting because the accents don't carry the same special, cultural "punch."
As I see, in most anime/manga/novel a character speaks with an accent or in broken Japanese only if it's funny to have him speak like that, or when it's actually important that he has an accent. In fact, I can't really think of any characters who have an accent, except the guy in the Mosquiton OVA (the cruise episode) and Yukishiro Enishi in the Kenshin manga (and even he loses much of his Chinese accent as the story goes on, I guess Watsuki got tired of writing it).
|
Back to top |
|
|
darkhunter
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 2992
Location: Los Angelas
|
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:59 am
|
|
|
Well all of that English Japanese issue aside, this is an excellent excellent anime. I've been following the DVD as they're being release and each episode continues to build upon the last one. I've never read the original novel, so I can't compare the two.
The visual are great and very stylish. I personally thought the visual set the tone and mood that really captivate the viewer. It just seems to work really well in this anime. New anime fans or people that are simply close minded will have a hard time accepting such a non-traditional visual style.
The story has an excellent pace to it and I love the seriousness of the story. The anime is definitely aim at a more sophisticated adult viewer. The characters are very well handled, the dialogs are very well written so that the drama/mystery/suspense keeps building. I personally didn't mind the melodrama. Also the opening and closing theme song are very memorable.
If you're a new anime fan want action/comedy fluff like Naruto and Bleach or gory violent series like Elfen Lied & Hellsing than this series probably isn't for you. Gankutsou is a real gem for adults, especially since there isn't a lot of anime like this.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nabeshin
Joined: 15 Apr 2005
Posts: 94
|
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:52 am
|
|
|
Strategos wrote: | I guess I am the only one that finds the visuals more distracting than "awe-inspiring". Granted, there are other reasons why I don't really care for the series too much (I find it incredibly over-dramatic to the point of absurdity), but most of the reviews I have seen have gone ape over the "incredible" visuals. |
Realistically, you must realize that in attempting this, they brought in a renowned fashion designer for the outfits of the characters, which, as anyone could understand, is about aristocracy-- and with aristocracy comes lavish garments and appearance. By utilizing the matted-pattern technique, it allowed the extravagant articles of clothing and background pieces to be accurately drawn through each frame, and not needing to worry about the patterns or even dozens of colors that the outfits or articles would have been normally been rendered at, which would have been a technical nightmare and made production time long and drawn out. I applaud the technique, and find it a major strength of the show.
|
Back to top |
|
|
|