Forum - View topicKimi ni Todoke - From Me to You (TV / ONA).
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 24171 |
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Uh-oh, we are doing that freaky "thinking along the same lines" thing again. Given that I don't care about a dub for this show (even though I am usually pro-dub) it occurred to me I'd love NISA to pick this up and give it their premium treatment. Given the five shows they have licensed so far, it seems to me that Kimi ni Todoke would be right up their alley. |
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Bento-Box
 Posts: 1049 Location: Florida |
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I was thinking this earlier this week as well. I would totally purchase one of the Premium boxes from NIS for this series if it came available. I think NIS or TRSI would probably be the licensing companies who would pick something like this up judging by other previous releases.
Really hoping it comes out over here. The fiance thinks that it won't because he doesn't believe there is a strong enough market for shoujo anime titles. Given that it's sold a boat load of DVDs over in Japan, I would imagine this would be something that some company out there would want to pick up. Not to knock other titles, but Yumekui Merry and Sacred Blacksmith pale heavily in comparison to KnT even though they're cross-genre titles and THEY got a release over here. I'd also like to see a Wandering Son release but that will totally never happen, sadly. |
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Dolza
 Posts: 94 Location: Chicagoland |
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Now that is an example of what a show should be. The story was well told, with consistant pacing, and led to an actual conclusion. Good writing makes all the difference.
Ryu's spoiler["I Like You" and Chizu's "I Know" were great!] The Rooftop "confrontation" was well done too, with the non typical reactions. Such a good show! |
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AlanMintaka
 Posts: 99 |
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I've just finished watching Season 2. I pre-ordered the NIS America box set from RightStuf last April 2012 and was surprised to receive it this week, before the actual release date.
Aside from the early delivery, however, I was disappointed, in a big way. The first disappointment was one that I was hoping I wouldn't see with Kimi Ni Todoke, based on past viewing experience with Season 2 of Ah! My Goddess! spoiler[Basically, the writers pulled the same kind of "romantic relapse" in Kimi Ni Todoke as they did in Ah! My Goddess! season 2: they completely undid all of the accomplishments of Sawako and Kazehaya's in growing closer together, and started the second season with the two protagonists about as distant as they were after their first meetings in season 1. That set the tone for season 2, "starting over", a series of repetitions of the same themes used in season 1. I was angered by this cop-out because I personally wanted season 2 to be about the relationship moving forward through all 12 episodes. That did not happen, not by a long shot. Instead, little progress was made until around episode 10, which really should have been episode 1. ] In addition to that letdown with the general theme of season 2, I found "Episode 0" to be inane. I don't need a spoiler warning here, because it's the very first episode and is a sort of recap of season 1. I say "sort of" because the recap is told through the eyes of Kurumi, so of course we receive a different perspective on previous events. But to what end? Viewers of season 1 already know about Kurumi. In fact her character and her interactions with the rest of the cast were explored fairly well in season 1. As for new viewers, this recap would have told them nothing at all about the "real" Sawako, Kazehaya and friends. Instead the new viewers would have been treated to a cast of radically different personalities starting with episode 1. In short, episode 0 was a waste of extra storyline space. You could say the same about any recap, I suppose, but in this case the waste is magnified by the distorted perspective presented to new viewers. In addition, recaps do serve a purpose for previous viewers whose memories are as limited as mine. Someone like me needs a recap of what actually happened as a sort of refresher course. What I got was a recap of only one character and only those events affecting that character. It wasn't enough. Besides, there's just an overall inanity to the decision to present the recap through Kurumi's eyes. It was stupid, and, in fact, stupidly done. The contrast here can be seen in later episodes of season 2, in which Kurumi's character is explored in much more depth, and, believe or not, in which she seems to grow more than the other characters. It would be hard for another character not to grow more than the two protagonists in season 2, at least in the first 9 episodes. spoiler[Instead we see them grow further apart, seemingly as a result of a combination of bad luck occurrences and Sawako's insecurities/obsessive thinking. The problem here is that even with those factors present, an undoing of the closeness between Sawako and Kazehaya at the end of season 1 just doesn't wash. Perhaps this is why there are very few references to the holiday scenes in that season. A few ambiguous still frames here and there, an occasional obsessive burst of irrational fears on Sawako's part... that's it. None of the tenderness or closeness is actually shown, or even implied very well. I think the writers must have known that if those scenes had been recalled to any extent, it would have blown the whole premise of season 2.] In short, "give me a break, "oh come on now", etc. If you don't react that way, I'd be very interested in knowing why, believe me. As for the episodes starting with 10, spoiler[ they were a disappointment because they didn't proceed far enough with the development of some kind of relationship between Sawako and Kazehaya. Sure, all kinds of "official" things are said (I didn't coin the use of the word "official" in this context - Kazehaya did), and the characters actually hug! Shocking! The problem is that during these interludes of supposed physical closeness in those hugs, Sawako always looks shocked, if not terrified. I don't know about Kazehaya, but Sawako still has a long, long ways to do in that department.] The next spoiler concerns some things that are said and done at the very end of the series, after the closing credits (as usual with Anime). Here too I was disappointed. spoiler[They meet for a date at a Planetarium showing. Later in the seats they're shown panicking and turning flaming red just because they're sitting closely and looking at each other. Remember, this is still happening at the end of 12 episodes following the holiday scenes in season 1. Really? Really? After the Planetarium showing, they're sitting together on an outdoor bench. Here the second "hug" of the entire series takes place. In this case the "hug" seems even more terrifying to Sawako, who keeps her arms pulled in tightly at her sides, hands close to her own shoulders. At least in that first classroom hug, she dared to return the affection by clutching at his shirt. In the last scene she looks as though she isn't screaming "Rape!" only because she's paralyzed with fear. Notice the expression on her face, when you can see it - that's shock, nothing more or less. I know that what she says prior to that belies that sort of fear - that's the problem here. Her panic and withdrawn posture just don't jive with the rest of the scene. ] spoiler[Then there are those last few lines of dialogue. Huh? I hope viewers who understand Japanese are reading this, because I'd love to hear their perspective on the translation here. The subtitle version goes something like this (bear in mind that I'm paraphrasing a Swiss-cheese memory): Sawako: I must seem like a hypocrite. I want time to fly so that our being together will quickly become the norm. Kazehaya: (hugs her while she reacts with a shocked expression as described above). I would never be that wasteful. I'm sorry. At first I thought I was in a one-sided crush. Now I'm worried that I'm monopolizing all our good times together. Sawako: (to the fourth wall) I told Kazehaya how I feel. And he feels the same. End of last scene. What the hell? Does "he feels the same" reference that insecurity about monopolizing their time together? If it doesn't and instead references their feelings for each other in general, then why include his statement of concern about "monopolizing" at all? What is the point of this final dialogue?] (I didn't hide the following in a spoiler tag. Think of it as another comment about season 2 in general, though it does also apply specifically to that last scene.) Good grief. Anyone could argue that relationships are always experiencing irrational "growing pains" and transient discontinuities like this. That goes without saying. Usually, however, such, er, "irregularities" (think "herbal garden" if you want some insight into the best possible metaphor the writers could have imagined) are understandable as such. This one not only defies the common sense associated with the trials of new relationships: it defies competent writing. Really, now. Couldn't the writers have done a little better with that last dialogue? What was their problem here? Now here's the huge bottom line, at least as long as the rest of this diatribe. Once I got started, I just couldn't stop myself. I may actually have found something good here.... spoiler[Bottom line: perhaps the Sawako, Kazehaya, and their relationship do grow somewhat starting with episode 10. It isn't much growth considering how far they'd gotten in season 1. But should they and their relationship really be the showcases at all in this series? Maybe I was wrong about using Kurumi for the recap episode after all, because if anyone at all in the series experiences some major positive changes, it's Kurumi. Her insights when she's lecturing her former cohorts are spot on. Her tone is bitter and angry, but the message certainly rings true.] spoiler[Naturally not content with merely showing Kurumi's growth in contrast to the torturous meanderings of Sawako and Kazehaya, the writers decided to slip in a little last-minute dialogue stupidity for her too - although she herself doesn't spew the imponderables. Surprisingly, Ayane assumes responsibility for the nonsense speech in that scene (this further speaks to the incompetency of the "final scene" writing, since it's totally out of character for her). Kurumi: (bemoaning her fate to Kento, this season's male foil) I was relieved because maybe I'd found a way out of this..... Kazehaya could never like me because of the things I've done. Ayane: (suddenly approaches and places a hand on Kurumi's shoulder) You know that it would be different if I were a male. I'd accept all your dirty little secrets. What the hell (redux)? Ayane's tone and manner suggest consolation. The content of what she says suggests a cerebral aneurysm. At least Kurumi manages to display a little intact gray matter. She sneers and says Kurumi: It's none of your business. (and walks away with Kento, who did his own share of growing in the series. Say, maybe.....) Bravo, Kurumi!] spoiler[Aside from that little interruption, courtesy of the anime end-scene writers, the growth of Kurumi in the series is clearly shown as heads-above that of anyone else. In fact, I wonder if the message "From Me To You" is better delivered from Sawako to Kurumi, rather than between Sawako and Kazehaya. In their final dialogue on the school's roof, Krumui essentially thanks Sawako because "you (Sawako) exist" and because "you were my rival". Indeed, Sawako was the "way out of this" for Kurumi. No complaints from me on that one, especially since it was a final dialogue that was well written. How often does that happen in anime?] Well, I'm out of steam. I wonder if my expectations were just a little too high for season 2. Whether or not that's really the case, it was a big letdown for me. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Hi. Yes I am indeed in New Zealand, quite chilly here with the winter. Well, at least we don't get snow or road ice where I live, so its probably not that cold compared to other places. I watched both seasons on fansubs. Neither season has appeared on the store shelves where I live, which is kinda sad. I'd snap them up in a heartbeat if they were. Anyway, as it has been fifteen months to the day since the final episode of the of the second season aired, I just now rewatched it. And I have to say it was a lot better than I remembered it as being. There was a lot more closure, especially with Kurumi who actually was an important character (being the one to push Sawako forward). Except, she was important in the first season, not this one. So in a way some of the resolution to her arc should have been in the first season or at the start of the second. In fact, instead of having an episode zero recap with Kurumi only, it could have been about Sawako and Kurumi's rivalry and much of Kurumi's arc could have been finished there. That would have left the final episode for Sawako and Shouta rather than have half of it just for Kurumi. I did like how Sawako had sort of grown as a person since she confronted those girls and could tell Kurumi she'd confessed without blaming herself, but once again it didn't need to be in the final episode. She should have grown more beforehand, not waiting until the final episode and have it shoved in when the focus should have been on other things. So yeah, long story short, Kurumi needed to have her scenes be moved earlier so those lovebirds could get a better ending for themselves. Now, it was definitely annoying that the two weren't more comfortable being around one another. While it is natural for there to be some lingering awkwardness straight after a confession, there was a little too much (you mentioned the planetarium and I do agree there). But I suppose it is a fairly subjective thing. Still, I think the main problem wasn't the awkward date itself but that it comprised the last scenes of the show. No, in fact, the real main problem was that the second season was waaay out of joint with pacing and character development. The relationship (such as it was) didn't just go backwards to the beginning, it went backwards past that. All of a sudden Shouta could no longer speak to Sawako properly. All of a sudden Sawako forgets everything she learned about communication in Season 1 and becomes a nervous wreck. Of course people get nervous when they really like someone but don't know if that significant other feels the same way. I wouldn't be so frustrated if it were just normal relationship nerves. It seemed like every obstacle that could get in the way did get in the way, and at times it made me just want to grind my teeth. It is a real testament to how much I love the characters themselves that I could still sit through the pacing issues and big lapses in storytelling quality. The Manga-ka (who of course wrote the story the Anime was adapting) had set up this really sweet relationship (well, friendship is a more accurate term for most of the show's run). But then she decided to pad things out, no matter how much it hurt the initial charm and sweetness of her initial story. Season 1 had an amazing first three-to-six episodes but then a huge sag in the middle before picking itself up for the end. Season 2 just started out awfully (the Valentine's Day episode) and got worse from there before finally - finally - giving the fans the minimum of what they wanted which was an official pairing. I say 'pairing' rather than 'couple' because the ending was so rushed that we never really got to see the two as a proper couple. I saw them as a pairing that wanted to be a couple; even after the confession they were a couple in name only. Shouta and Sawako were two awkward inexperienced kids who were still getting to know one another and who were not comfortable with being around one another yet. That's an interesting dynamic and has a lot of room to explore, enough for an entire cour (once other characters and their arcs are thrown in). In fact, in my view, Season 1 should have ended on a confession and Season 2 should have been about what happens after the confession. That would have been a great show to watch, and it would have had the time to properly explore that territory. What we actually got was okay, but only just. That's what happens when you go far too slowly for so long and then rush the ending because you're out of time. Anyway, I said before that I love the characters. I really did care about/empathise with them, even after the first episode of the first season. This emotional connection to the characters is why I rated both seasons as Very Good, which translates to about a B+ in my book. If the story had done its job and handled those characters properly, the show would have gone from good to amazing and I would have definitely rated it higher. |
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AlanMintaka
Posts: 99 |
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That's been my stake in it all along, and certainly one reason why I was so disappointed in season 2. RE the dialogue in the very last scene: in the fansubs, did it go pretty much as I paraphrased the NIS America version? As in: spoiler[ Kazehaya: I would never be that wasteful. I used to think I was in a one-sided crush. Now I'm worried that I'm monopolizing our time together. Sawako: (to the 4th wall) I told Kazehaya my feelings. And he feels the same!] Better yet: if it did sound that way in the fansubs, could you make sense of why that business of spoiler["monopolizing our time together" ] was thrown in? BTW Season 2 of the NISA release ought to be appearing on the various Amazon country sites next week. The two box sets for Season 1 are already there. I don't know how the exchange rates would work out with NZL, but logistically at least, you can get your hands on it. I'm in the USA, New Hampshire (Northeast, baking at the moment, but due for the annual Ice Age in only 5 months) I keep looking at that Strike Witches Season 2 Blu-Ray on Amazon Japan, and the exchange rate that I could just afford if I lived on potatoes and water for a few weeks. The voices only I can hear keep telling me "buy it, buy it, buy it....." . |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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The dialogue from the fansub went word-for-word precisely like this:
(they're sitting on the park bench, he's eating the chocolates) Sawako: I don't know the first thing about being a good girlfriend, but- Shouta: (interjecting) Kuronuma, it's not a job. It's not a job. Just be yourself. Sawako: I'm so happy, almost too happy, that sometimes I wish time would pass even faster. Faster, so that being with you would become something normal. Shouta: (hugs her) Don't wish for something so wasteful. Sawako: I'm sorry. Shouta: I always thought that only I had feelings for you and not the other way around, and that I was the only one who felt such happiness. Sawako: (she's internalising this) Kazehaya feels the exact same way I do. AlanMintaka, I don't know if the fansub is accurate or if they changed the translation because the original Japanese sucked. And likewise with official version you have. But I have to say that I prefer the fansub over the official version, as the fansub lacks the "monopolising our time together" nonsense. |
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AlanMintaka
Posts: 99 |
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It's not just lacking the monopolizing nonsense - the fansub translation is heads-above better than the NISA "official" version. It's totally affirming, whereas the NISA subs just introduce another mindless worry on Shouta's part. As long as I'm suspending a lot of disbelief to watch anime in the first place, I think I'll content myself with believing that the fansub translation is more accurate than the NISA version. If nothing else, the fansubs at least make sense. Thanks for the lift! I actually feel better about the series now. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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You are very welcome. Glad I could help. |
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AlanMintaka
Posts: 99 |
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Hi dtm42, I was wondering if I could impose on your access to that fansub version again. I've been confused about the last conversation between Kurumi, Kento, and Ayane. In my previous diatribe of spoilers, I included this scene: spoiler[One of the final scenes in the last episode: Kurumi and Kento are talking together. As they discuss the recent events, Ayane can be seen approaching them from the left. Kurumi: (bemoaning her fate to Kento) I was relieved because maybe I'd found a way out of this..... Kazehaya could never like me because of the things I've done. Ayane: (approaches and places a hand on Kurumi's shoulder) You know that it would be different if I were a male. I'd accept all your dirty little secrets. Kurumi: (sneering, turns to Ayane) It's none of your business. (and walks away with Kento)] Ayane's statement here is a puzzler. The animation and voice make it seem as though she's trying to console Kurumi, but what she says almost sounds like mockery. Does the fansub translation sound like this? |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Okay, no problem, just got to fire up my archive computer . . . got it.
Once again the fansub word for word, including the small mistake the fansub makes with Kurumi's fourth sentence in her first speech: [Kurumi is talking to Kento] Kurumi: If I had looked more closely, I would have seen it. Kazehaya's a different person when he's with her compared to how he is with other girls. I've never seen him with that sort of expression before. I've never knew [sic] that side of him. Even if I hate it, I understand it now. Kazehaya will never like me now. I did something he hates more than anything else, after all. [Ayane walks in, lays a hand on her shoulder] Ayane: It's impossible for you to be with him. I bet you're thinking now, that it would have been better if you were a guy. And that even if he knew about what you did, it'd be okay. Kurumi: I don't need to hear that from you. [starts tearing up] When I think that this can finally end now, I actually feel somewhat relieved. [walks away from Ayane and Kento] Not sure if the discrepancy comes from the official subs rewording things or the fansubs trying to make the best out of a weird piece of dialogue in the original Japanese. All I know is that the fansubs seem to be quite different than what you told me the official subs were. I don't speak moon runes so I have no idea which one to believe, though the fansubs at least appear to make better sense here (as they did with the park bench scene). I mean, why would Ayane be talking about herself and accepting Kurumi's secrets? Especially considering that moments before, Kurumi had just been talking about how Kazehaya wouldn't accept her? I don't know what the official subs are doing but they don't seem to logically follow one another and throw out some bizarre lines. On the other hand, the only problems with the fansubs are that one line of Kurumi's (where the "I've" should have been "I") and maybe its propensity to use too many commas. There is one further thing I'd like to point out. Kento doesn't walk off with Kurumi but stays with Ayane and speaks with her. It might help to re-watch the scene just to make sure you are remembering it correctly. |
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AlanMintaka
Posts: 99 |
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Hi dtm42, Thanks once again for providing those fansubs. Yes, I did screw up on the sequencing of how the three characters walked out of the scene. However, the subtitles were pretty much on target. I just copied them verbatim, picking up with the last few sentences in the first paragraph of your fansubs: Kurumi: He'll never like me later on, either, because I'm guilty of the thing he hates most. Ayane: (approaches, lays a hand on Kurumi's shoulder) You can't have Kazehaya. But, you know... it'd be different if I were a guy, wouldn't it? If I were... I'd accept all your dirty little secrets. Kurumi: That's none of your business. It's just... when I thought I could finally get out of this, I felt relieved. (leaves) Ayane: so many unpredictable events... Kento: Kazsehaya's so into Sadako-chan, and Kurumi's more clumsy than I thought. Sadako-chan turned out cuter than I expected... But what surprised me the most... the fact that I'm relieved. That it happened before I fell for her. Ayane (surprised): You serious!? Kento: I'm serious! Ayane: Can you stop messing with my friend? Kento: I would never! Kento: Ayane, you're kinder than I thought. Ayane: What's that supposed to mean? (they leave together) There you have it. I replayed what Ayane said here a few times, just to make sure that Kurumi really wasn't the one who said "But, you know... it'd be different if I were a guy, wouldn't it?" followed by Ayane saying "If I were... I'd accept all your dirty little secrets." However, Ayane definitely said all of it. Note how she suggests the gender difference for herself, rather than suggest that Kurumi must be thinking that way. It all makes me wonder how may of the subtitles in this series are somewhat inaccurate at best, just plain wrong at worst. The serious bummer for me is that I much prefer listening to the Japanese voice acting with English subtitles. I've always taken it for granted that translations between the languages might be a little off, but really.... this is pretty bad. Well, thanks once again for your help.... |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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That is very, very strange.
Shame that NISA dropped the ball with this one. I too thought official releases were supposed to be of a high standard. Oh well, you can always download the fansubs and watch them instead, because at least they're readable and make sense. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 24171 |
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Ugh. I only have the first Kimi ni Todoke set, which I haven't watched and I plan to order the other two at some point. I sincerely hope that passage you quoted, AlanMintaka, isn't representative of the whole. That would be massively depressing. It's a bit confounding because I thought NISA did a fantastic job of Our Home's Fox Deity which could not have been an easy title to translate (because of all the specific Japanese mythology) yet they did a great job of conveying humour and not having confusing passages. *sigh*
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AlanMintaka
Posts: 99 |
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Well, I can tell you that I watched the NISA release of Fox Deity too, and thought it was great. I didn't notice any confusing dialogue in the subtitles. If there were any slip-ups, they were nowhere near as bad as those in Kimi Ni Todoke. I'm like you when it comes to Japanese mythology and religion. I really like the Shinto temple scenes and customs. As a Cradle Catholic, I can speak with authority that confession was never that much fun. That said, the Fox Deity series was a lot of fun to watch. It's definitely a keeper and multiple-viewing collector's item for me, in the shelf with the other mythological-themed series such as Spice and Wolf, Fruits Basket, etc. RE what you said here:
That's the problem. I've been talking about the confusing passages in Kimi Ni Todoke that stood out for me. There could be a lot of other mistranslations that changed the meaning of some scenes. How would I know? Well, there is one way to know, even though it's going to break my little bank. I can start investing in the Kimi Ni Todoke manga series. With all the money I've been spending on these NISA "Premium" and/or "Deluxe" editions, that's going to be a stretch. My problem. I just wanted to be sure to toss in my two cents about Fox Deity. I did like it a lot, and it certainly didn't leave my head spinning about translations the way Kimi Ni Todoke has. Enjoy the Fox! |
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