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.Sy



Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:50 pm Reply with quote
I've seen Fullmoon wo Sagashite on many fansites, but in SJ July, the picture of the graphic novel said Fullmoon o Sagashite. Are these two interchangeable? Could anyone explain which one is correct? Thanks!

Edit--Changed the subject to something more general. Just don't start asking what every word in the dictionary means...


Last edited by .Sy on Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Arkard



Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 677
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:57 pm Reply with quote
Right, you want to know about the Transcription of kana here.
First of all, almost all of the world uses the Hepburn Transcription method (Heebburun shiki romaji) in which you transcript the WO kana as O in certain cases.

For clarification: WO and O both reffer to the same hiragana: を
and if used in any other context it is written as WO, but when you are using it in the term of pointing out the Accusativus it Should be written as O.
In the same way the HE kana is transcriped as E when used as a destination pointer.

So in this case you want to use O as the title indicates.
Sagasu - to look
Sagashite - is the Converbium Succesivum form of Sagasu
Fullmoon is kinda self explainatory
So in this case the translation means "Looking for the Fullmoon" which clearly points to an Accusativus form so the WO を kana should be written as O. The final answer: it should be O.
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satti



Joined: 16 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:04 am Reply with quote
Arkard wrote:
Right, you want to know about the Transcription of kana here.
First of all, almost all of the world uses the Hepburn Transcription method (Heebburun shiki romaji) in which you transcript the WO kana as O in certain cases.

For clarification: WO and O both reffer to the same hiragana: ?
and if used in any other context it is written as WO, but when you are using it in the term of pointing out the Accusativus it Should be written as O.
In the same way the HE kana is transcriped as E when used as a destination pointer.

So in this case you want to use O as the title indicates.
Sagasu - to look
Sagashite - is the Converbium Succesivum form of Sagasu
Fullmoon is kinda self explainatory
So in this case the translation means "Looking for the Fullmoon" which clearly points to an Accusativus form so the WO ? kana should be written as O. The final answer: it should be O.


he explained accurately.
when I write Japanese word on keybord, I type WO to spell Ç? . but I pronounce O to read Ç? when I speak.
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.Sy



Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 1266
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:37 pm Reply with quote
Thank you both, this really cleared things up.
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Michi
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Joined: 22 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:50 pm Reply with quote
..I dunno if there's really a romanization rule as to how it's used. But you pronounce it more like 'o' but 'wo' comes out sometimes too. ^^;
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dgreater1



Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 307
Location: in the Phillipine's AIR space with Misuzu
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:06 pm Reply with quote
Since we're in pronunciation... this has been bugging me

は = ha

but it is also pronounced as "wa"

わ = wa and no more other pronounciation

を = wo (pronounce "wo" as in "work")

お = o (pronounced as "o" in "work" just like o-ha-yo-u)

anyway, if you listen to the Full Moon wo Sagashite 1st ED, you'll have an idea how to pronounce it Anime smile


Last edited by dgreater1 on Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
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Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:23 pm Reply with quote
Michi wrote:
..I dunno if there's really a romanization rule as to how it's used. But you pronounce it more like 'o' but 'wo' comes out sometimes too. ^^;


I wonder if it's dependent on circumstances? I've heard it come out both ways, but I'm not sure of a particular rule in this case. Confused
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Arkard



Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 677
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:53 pm Reply with quote
OK guys, this is a Japanese Philology student talking to you, and after 9 months of constant grammar lessons, I am fairly sure I got this whole transcription thang.
Here is a small lecture about using the kana, transcripting it and pronouncing it.

the を kana:
On any kana chart you will find that the pronounciation of this symbol is WO (as in WOrk). This however, only applies when you use it inside a word, as a part of larger grammatical construction, or in any other case then it standing alone. IN those cases, you Read it and you Transcript it as WO. However the use of this kana is Very rare in the modern japanese language, except in the next case:
When you stumble upon it standing alone in a sentence, as in here: 犬を 見る。In this case the を kana is not a part of a larger word but a (excuse any errors I dont know the exact name of this in english) Particule. And the sheer job of this particule is to point out the ACCUSATIVUS. In the sentence I wrote: INU O MIRU the を kana points that the INU noun should be understood in its Acc form, in the sense of: I see (a what?) a Dog. In this Case, when the を kana points to the Accusativus, you ALWAYS read it as O (as in wOrk) and you ALWAYS transcript it as O. THIS is all there is to it. FINITO.

the は kana:
Right, normaly it is read as HA (as in HAmster). For example in the verb はじめる (to begin) - HAJIMERU, you read は as HA.
BUT if it stands alone, after a NOUN form (exactly like を) pointing out the TOPIC, you ALWAYS read it as WA (as in WAcky) and you ALWAYS transcript it as WA. Like in this case:
私は アーカード です. See here, は is standing alone after WATASHI (I, me) so it clearly points out the TOPIC (AS FOR ME) and it MUST be read as WA and transcript as WA. End.

the へ kana
again, if it is in a part of word it is read like HE (HElp), for example へんたい hentai. But if it stands alone pointing out the DESTINATION, it is read as E (EH) and transcripted as E. For example: えきへ いく. Here the へ kana is read as E and should be transcripted as E.

All clear? Smile
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alice20th



Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 74
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:27 am Reply with quote
Arkard wrote:
In this Case, when the ? kana points to the Accusativus, you ALWAYS read it as O (as in wOrk) and you ALWAYS transcript it as O. THIS is all there is to it. FINITO.


Or it would be "finito" if the world were filled with Japanese philology students. But in our case, the world is filled with people, Japanese and non-native Japanese speakers, who have word processors and will type any combination of letters that get's the kana onto the screen. That's why we have character names like Syaoran rather than Shaoran (which is how it's pronounced). If you type S+Y+A into a Japanese word processor, you'll get the character we pronounce as "sha."

And... there are incidents where the accusativus (which to non-philology students is called the direct object marker) is pronounced "wo," such as in song (not always, but there are times).

Unfortunately, the Hepburn system has many variations, and none of them are official (despite the widespread use of roman letters, the Japanese government has never weighed in on how best to use them). So as a rule of thumb, if you see two sets of spellings of something and they sound relatively similar, they're probably both correct.

Arkard, do you really pronounce "hamster" with the same "a" sound as in "father"? I would have used as an example the sound of laughter, "ha." The Japanese "a" sound is "ah" (as in "open wide and say"). The "o" sound is how we say "oh," and wo (in the rare instances that I've heard it) would sound like "whoa." I figure you were trying to point out the differences of consonants, but I can imagine some people coming away from your post pronouncing "hajimemashite" with the vowel sound in "hamster," and it makes me shudder.
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.Sy



Joined: 11 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:01 pm Reply with quote
alice20th wrote:
I can imagine some people coming away from your post pronouncing "hajimemashite" with the vowel sound in "hamster," and it makes me shudder.
Well, it would be more correct if you pronunce hamster with a British accent.
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alice20th



Joined: 08 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:13 pm Reply with quote
.Sy wrote:
alice20th wrote:
I can imagine some people coming away from your post pronouncing "hajimemashite" with the vowel sound in "hamster," and it makes me shudder.
Well, it would be more correct if you pronunce hamster with a British accent.


Not quite. It would have to be a German accent or something similar to get that "ah" sound. Although the British pronounce the "short A" slightly differently than Americans, "hat" is not pronounced "hot" in England. I'm not absolutely sure about "hamster," but I don't think it would come out sounding like "homsta" unless you were an American faking a British accent. Very Happy

Sorry to pull this off topic.
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.Sy



Joined: 11 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:31 pm Reply with quote
alice20th wrote:
"hat" is not pronounced "hot" in England. I'm not absolutely sure about "hamster," but I don't think it would come out sounding like "homsta" unless you were an American faking a British accent. Very Happy

Sorry to pull this off topic.
Heh, well, I'm obviously not an expert on these things.
I still consider this sorta on topic.
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Arkard



Joined: 15 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:40 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
If you type S+Y+A into a Japanese word processor, you'll get the character we pronounce as "sha."

You will get the same result if you type S+H+A, besides the japanese dont have the SHA sound (as in shadow for example) but instead they only have the palatized Sya sound which is btw transcripted as SHA. I want to make this clear. When writing SHA as a hiragana transcription it actually means the SYA (but I dont think the english language uses this sound). The same thing applies to SHO (which should be read as Syo), CHA (CHYA) etc... the Japanese use mainly palatized "sounds".. so in reality, it is not read SHOgun but SYOgun (but it is transcripted as SHOgun, it is not ninJA, but ninJYA (but transcripted as ninJA) etc... but of course those words made their way to the american culture so lets not start running around correcting people Wink this kind of pronounciation only applies in Japan.

Quote:
And... there are incidents where the accusativus (which to non-philology students is called the direct object marker) is pronounced "wo," such as in song (not always, but there are times).

Thats not really accurate. If the WO kana stands after the U kana, the modern japanese language tends to lengthen the U, making the O sound like WO. But that is more of a Linguistic process. You can safely say that WO when pointing out the Accusativus is always read as O. Still, is "accusativus" such a strange word? Even elementary school kids know about this stuff here.

Quote:
Unfortunately, the Hepburn system has many variations, and none of them are official (despite the widespread use of roman letters, the Japanese government has never weighed in on how best to use them). So as a rule of thumb, if you see two sets of spellings of something and they sound relatively similar, they're probably both correct.

OK, please dont spread rumours.
There is an official version of the Hepburn transcription system, which is a revised one of the original one Wink There is only ONE Hepburn system (though older version of it may exist).
As for the rest of the quote: you are mistaken. Excpet the officaly acknowledged Hepburn system you have a slightly different Japanese Transcription System (put together by top japanese linguistic proffesors) and the standard Goverment Transcription System. I dont have my chart with me, but I remember for example the differences are the CHI kana, which is transcripted as CHI in Hepburn is transcripted as TI in the Japanese system. All 3 systems are official. Got this info from my proffesor (durring class that is), as sent from the japanese embassy.

Quote:
Arkard, do you really pronounce "hamster" with the same "a" sound as in "father"? I would have used as an example the sound of laughter, "ha." The Japanese "a" sound is "ah" (as in "open wide and say"). The "o" sound is how we say "oh," and wo (in the rare instances that I've heard it) would sound like "whoa." I figure you were trying to point out the differences of consonants, but I can imagine some people coming away from your post pronouncing "hajimemashite" with the vowel sound in "hamster," and it makes me shudder.

Well I never was big for pronounciation. I always pronounced Hamster in the same way I pronounced Hajimemashite. I dont hear a difference, but maybe that is just me, I am Slovian after all.
I dont have a problem with it though. The japanese pronounciation method is exactly the same as in the Polish language so I never heard anyone complaining about my japanese pronounciation Smile. I could find a ton of other good examples from my own language but you wouldnt understand them so I tried to find somethign in english... thats all Smile
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alice20th



Joined: 08 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:56 pm Reply with quote
Arkard wrote:
Quote:
If you type S+Y+A into a Japanese word processor, you'll get the character we pronounce as "sha."

but of course those words made their way to the american culture so lets not start running around correcting people Wink this kind of pronounciation only applies in Japan.

I won't if you won't. Very Happy
There are more readers here than those with an interest in the particulars of Japanese pronunciation. There are a lot of transliterations where American readers wonder how they "got there from here," and that was how the "sya" explanation came about. How it relates to Full Moon wo Sagashite is if a person were to type the direct object marker on a Japanese word processor, one would have to type "wo," even though it is generally pronounced "o."

Quote:
Quote:
And... there are incidents where the accusativus (which to non-philology students is called the direct object marker) is pronounced "wo," such as in song (not always, but there are times).

Thats not really accurate. If the WO kana stands after the U kana, the modern japanese language tends to lengthen the U, making the O sound like WO.

Sorry, it is accurate. There are certain song lyrics that retain the "w" pronunciation on the postposition direct-object marker. Also, as I indicated, it's rare. You may not have encountered it, but it's folly to deny that it exists. If linguistics teaches a person anything it's the realization that one should approach absolutes with caution because there are nearly always exceptions.

Quote:
Still, is "accusativus" such a strange word? Even elementary school kids know about this stuff here.

It is a strange word for education in the United States. We use a different vocabulary to teach American English grammar. The word most elementary-school age children learn is "direct object." In Japanese classes in the States (at least the ones I've seen), they use the phrase, "direct object marker."

Quote:
Quote:
Unfortunately, the Hepburn system has many variations, and none of them are official (despite the widespread use of roman letters, the Japanese government has never weighed in on how best to use them).

OK, please don't spread rumours.
There is an official version of the Hepburn transcription system, which is a revised one of the original one Wink There is only ONE Hepburn system (though older version of it may exist).

Really? Several years ago, I spent days on the web and in reference libraries searching for any romanization scheme that was officially recognized by the Japanese government. I found nothing. I'd very much like to see a publication or web page that difines it.

But even so, we're talking about how normal Japanese people romanize Japanese for the purpose of titles and names of manga/anime characters. In the past four years, I've seen at least six different romanization schemes come out of Japan for the Japanese "long o" vowel sound: "o", "oo", "ou" (the word processor variant), "oh", "o" with a macron, and "o" with a circumflex (I've even seen it romanized as "au" once, but just once, so I don't consider it a part of a scheme). Fans of manga and anime must be willing to accept all of these because in the real world, all of these will be used at one time or another.

If there is an official romanization scheme (which again, I would really like to see some reference), the government does not enforce it nor even promote it among their citizens or non-governmental publications. A non-Japanese must expect a variety of romanizations.

Quote:
Well I never was big for pronounciation. I always pronounced Hamster in the same way I pronounced Hajimemashite. I don't hear a difference, but maybe that is just me, I am Slovian after all.

Pardon me, I didn't notice your country of origin. Although I doubt many Japanese would correct an American for pronouncing "hajimemashite" with the "short a" sound found in the word "bat" -- partly because I'm sure they are used to the American accent and partly because the vast majority of Japanese I've met would never be so rude as to correct someone when the word can be understood -- but the proper pronunciation for an American would be found in the vowel sound in "bot."
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Arkard



Joined: 15 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:16 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
if a person were to type the direct object marker on a Japanese word processor, one would have to type "wo," even though it is generally pronounced "o."

well yeah but that was already pointed out here before Smile we are still talking about the same kana を with its variety of transcription and pronounciation Smile

Quote:
Sorry, it is accurate. There are certain song lyrics that retain the "w" pronunciation on the postposition direct-object marker. Also, as I indicated, it's rare. You may not have encountered it, but it's folly to deny that it exists. If linguistics teaches a person anything it's the realization that one should approach absolutes with caution because there are nearly always exceptions.

Well if songs teach us anything is that they dont always are grammaticaly correct. I am not saying that they dont say WO but as I remember there are a lot of interesting changes in the way a person talks compared to when he sings (refering to the Japanese of course). I will dust of some of my notes when I get back to the country, because I am sure we talked about this during the japanese grammar class.

Quote:
I'd very much like to see a publication or web page that difines it.

Well I own it in an old fashioned, regular paper way Smile

Quote:
But even so, we're talking about how normal Japanese people romanize Japanese for the purpose of titles and names of manga/anime characters. In the past four years, I've seen at least six different romanization schemes come out of Japan for the Japanese "long o" vowel sound: "o", "oo", "ou" (the word processor variant), "oh", "o" with a macron, and "o" with a circumflex (I've even seen it romanized as "au" once, but just once, so I don't consider it a part of a scheme). Fans of manga and anime must be willing to accept all of these because in the real world, all of these will be used at one time or another.

I am just saying there are 3 types of transcripting:
The Hepburn System
The Japanese System
The Goverment System
Each is a little different than the other and these are the OFFICIAL transcription methods but the good news is they are easily inter changable. My gf for example kinda mixes the Japanese and the Hepburn System. But still, in those 3 systems there is presented every possible way of transcripting, like how to write the long o sound, how to write the Chyi sound etc, so anything that isnt presented in them is just fiction, often a mistake of a japanese fansuber or whatever. Still I am pretty sure there are strict rules as to certain transcription but they differ in every system.

Quote:
If there is an official romanization scheme (which again, I would really like to see some reference), the government does not enforce it nor even promote it among their citizens or non-governmental publications. A non-Japanese must expect a variety of romanizations.

The thing is the goverment doesnt really care alot for romanization. They advise to use kana as much as possible to protect the traditional japanese values or whateva Smile
You are right they dont enforce any particular way but you cannot make up all new grammar rules. There are 3 acceptable systems. You may chose the one you feel best with. But anything other than that has no right of existence.
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