Forum - View topicThe Evangelion Discussion. ( Spoilers, so be warned)
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Ikari1
 Posts: 531 Location: London |
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This is a new thread dedicated to discussion about Neon genesis Evangelion and it's films.
anime#49 The aim of this thread is to create somewhere, where general discussion about the series and the films can take place. This thread specifically deals with: Neon Genesis Evangelion ( 26 episode tv series) Death and Rebirth (Film ) The End of Evangelion (Film) Rebuild of Evangelion 1:0 You are [Not] Alone. (Film) Rebuild of Evangelion 2:0 You Can [Not] Advance (movie) Released June 27th 2009 (Japan). Trailer: mms://free-wms.b-ch.com/official/eva-movie/eva_sy8hrkmx9aep_1000k.wmv Rebuild Of Evangelion 3:0 Q (Quickening) Unrealeased Rebuild Of Evangelion 4:0 ( Final) Unreleased There will be spoilers for all of the series and films listed above. So be warned/ Whenever a thread has come up recently that involves Evangelion in some way, the thread tends to become derailed and go off topic; taking away the focus from a more specific topic. This is the case with the most recent thread that is supposed to be talking about the live action movie but has instead turned into yet another discussion about the series and films. Since alot of people still seem interested in discussing what the films and series actually mean I've decided to create a new thread for this specific purpose. I have had a look at the other past Evangelion threads or at least the threads dedicated specifically to Evangelion but they are quite old, outdated and decrepid now. There will be spoilers within this thread so be warned if you have not yet seen the series or films. If you dont understand something from the evangelion universe, the wikipedia page is very helpful and you can always ask questions on this thread There is already a thread available that deals with the live action movie so matters concerning the live action movie should be discussed in that thread, not here. Similarly, all discussion about the origional series and films that is currently taking place in the Live action movie thread should now be confined to just this thread. If I see any derailment or off topic posts, they will be reported and/ or just ignored. I understand that Evangelion can be a hot spots for heated discussions to take place but please try and keep things civil. I've been in my fair share of over-heated discussions recently and they are a drain to all those concerned. On the plus side however, there is a myrid of different things to discuss within the Evangelion universe so to speak, so dont shy away from swapping your exsperiences and thoughts on what Evangelion means to you. Regards Dean[/ Last edited by Ikari1 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:33 am; edited 14 times in total |
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zanarkand princess
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So we just carry ever thing over from the other topic right?
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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yeah thats the plan.
I'm not entirely sure how this will work without the current conversations you lot have been having in the live action movie thread looking disjointed . We need some of the last lot of posts from the live action thread carried over to this one. Of course I'm not sure if this is possible anyway but I would be eternally greatful if when one of the mods finds the time, they could do this for me. I would suggest the last 10 or so posts from the live action movie thread be moved here if that is possible. In the mean time Zanarkand I would copy your last post that you made in that thread into this one as it would be a pretty good start to the thread. This is at least until I know wether or not it will be ok for the mods to move over some of the content from the live action movie thread. Last edited by Ikari1 on Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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zanarkand princess
Posts: 1484 |
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Well ok then here's my last post
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8501 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Aw, see. You put "2.0" in the title, and I thought for a moment that the second Rebuild movie was out already, instead of forty years from now, which is about the time the first one will be licensed for R1.
Let's talk about Pen Pen. And how one of the four movies should be entirely about him. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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With respect to Asuka, she is a strong example of a Tsundere character. However, instead of being Tsundere solely for fanservice requirements, she has a lot of depth to her character. It all seemed to start with her mother dying.
Her normally bitchy attitude is actually a result of her insecurities. She wanted to be the best, and was eager to be praised. On the very day she received confirmation of being accepted into NERV (if I correctly recall), she discovered her mother's dead body. To add to that, her mother died by way of suicide rather than a natural cause (though I have often wondered if NERV killed her to put her soul into Unit 02, not to mention focus Asuka's energy onto piloting rather than her mother). Asuka's subsequent measure of her self-worth was entirely based on how well she could perform her duties at NERV. It is interesting that this should be so, as one would expect a normal child to not be so traumatised. This suggests that she felt she had let her mother down, as what "normal" mother would commit suicide if she had a daughter she loved? Anyway, despite her mother's mental illness, she still loved her mother very much (and vice versa; unfortunately her mother poured her love onto the wrong target, but the love itself was real). Her death left Asuka emotionally scarred, and afraid to get close to anyone else for fear of being hurt again (one of Evangelion's main themes). Her vow to never cry again was her armour against her pain. Asuka's father was ill-equipped to comfort Asuka properly. Though Asuka claimed that she did not hate her stepmother, it is apparent that her stepmother only reminds her of what she lost. She doesn't seem to hate her father, but it is clear that they are distant. I wonder if she hated him in the past, for quickly marrying another woman so soon after his first wife died. If she did, it could mean that she is susceptible to the healing power of time. It is clear that her father failed to adequately comfort her, though whether her transfer to NERV prevented him from doing so is unclear. As her relationship with her father was so distant, she looked around for another father figure. Of course, we all know that Kaji was the man she picked. Why this was so is uncertain; he certainly was not the ideal man, being a womaniser and young enough to be her brother. Her relationship with Kaji can be described as an infatuation, and most definitely sexual in nature. I'm not saying that they had sex, as it is clear in their body language (especially Kaji's) that this is not so. I am saying that her desire to find a father figure was complicated by her entering puberty, which corrupted her feelings for him. The result of this was a girl who could not stand being emotionally hurt, and yet was heavily investing herself in an relationship that existed only in her head. It was only ever going to end in pain; indeed, I wonder if part of her infamous breakdown wasn't caused her realisation that Kaji was never going to reciprocate her affections. Her relationship with Shinji was a strange one. She hated him, and despised him for being weak, stupid, effeminate, being plain with few friends - and having a higher Sync Ratio. She loved him for being quiet, caring, considerate, and shy, all of which she was not. She wanted his love but feared getting it, and therefore only served to confuse the hell out of him by flirting with him while simultaneously putting him down with harsh insults. Her relationship with Rei was even stranger. Asuka had had a phobia of dolls ever since her mother hung a doll - the one she thought was Asuka - before hanging herself. Combined with the fact that the doll had received the love and attention that Asuka so desperately craved, and it is no wonder that Asuka hated and feared dolls with a passion. Now, this relates to Rei, as Rei was infamously a doll of sorts. Her actions were always slow and considered, she always obeyed orders, and - 95% of the time - she had less personality than wet cardboard. It is no wonder that Asuka saw Rei as a doll, which in turn triggered Asuka's hostility. It is a mark of Asuka's professionalism that she could work with Rei on two occasions despite hating what Rei represented. I would go on, but I do not have the luxury of typing as much as I would like. However, I do want to finish up by saying that I feel Asuka was the most fascinating, the most sympathetic and best psychologically conceived character in Evangelion. Not bad for a character that appears in at least a half-dozen less episodes than either Shinji or Rei. I hope your thread goes well, Ikari1. And don't worry; if I post here in the future, I will strive to be A: succinct, and B: civil. Last edited by dtm42 on Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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Cheers Zanarkand.
If people think the new topic title isnt clear enough then I will change it. It's only there to attract attention at the moment and let everybody know that there is a new thread being constructed to replace/substitute the outdated ones. Once the thread gets underway I'll change it to something more boring or simple if you like. Ill respond to the proper posts, the ones that are not aimed at derailing the thread. EDIT: Sorry dtm42 I've only just seen your post. I've been typing that last post for the last hour and a half and didn't refresh the page. Much appreciated. I'll be civil aswell. No more hand bags at dawn this time lol
With regards to the whole Shinji, Asuka relationship. You are right, in the manga there is more going on romantically with Shinji, rei and Asuka. The manga seems to highlight this side of the show more than the anime series. With regards to the series however, the relationship between Shinji and Asuka is complex in that they clearly like each other but are just terrible at showing this. You have to look quite deeply or at least fairly deeply into the two of them to see that they actually do like each other. In the end of evangelion the pair of them are shown to be together on the beach over looking the LCL ocean and other destruction that was wrought by third impact. In the end of evangelion we are told that every one has the power to return to there own bodies if they have the will to live. I think after Asuka's performance against the Eva series, we can safely say she definatly has the will to live and a strong will at that. So in one way, she could just be there becasue she had the will to live. On the other side of the argument though it the fact that Shinji could have been the one who wanted her to be there with him the most. We are presented with a kind of adam and eve symbolism at the end of the film and this does suggest that they are destined to be together. Of course the strangling scene kind of puts this theroy to the test. Shinji did however stop at the last moment. Asuka did voluntarilly stroke/caress his face. After everything that happened the pair of them probably knew that it was pointless for them to continue the way they were. Asuka doesnt need to act like she did and hide any feelings she had for Shinji and Shinji FINALLY realises that he can allow himself to be loved. At first he probably thinks that it's a bit of sore luck that the one person who he ends up with at the end/ beggining of all things is the person who abused him the most in the series. But then he realises that it is a new start and stops himself. You could say that him strangling her is the last remnemnts of his desire to be in a world with only him in it; the dream world we are shown during the 'desision' sequence during the EOE.
This quote from dtm42 sums the situation up better than I have put it on this one. Throughout the series they were at each other's throats alot of the time but then there are other small indications that behind all that was some kind of love. I'll get the most obvious example out of the way and that would be the 'Kiss' scene. Granted she nearly suffocated him in the process but Asuka isnt one to just let anyone kiss her after all. Along side this we are shown a scene in the EOE ( I think) that shows Asuka stating that 'You wouldnt even hold me!'. Now I think this comment refers to this scene and other scenes where Asuka has teased him sexually. One such scene would be whilst they are swimming in episode 10 I believe. I think the quote that would best sum up that exchange would be ' Do you think my breasts would get bigger when heated?', followed by ' Boring guy', when shinji doesnt react the way she wants him to. In fact episode 10 is also a good one to watch if we are looking at the whole dislike between Rei and Asuka. The scene in the swimming pool where Asuka is showing off her ' back roll entry' could be seen as her trying to divert shinji's attentions away from rei and back on to her. The camera pans between Asuka and Rei breifly aswell to maybe emphasise this. Other examples include the scene where Asuka goes to the bathroom whilst they are training to defeat the angel in a tandem attack in episode 9. She walks in and chooses to sleep next to shinji. Shinji then attempts to kiss her. In the manga this point in the series is portrayed as being a little more romantic. They seem closer. There are plenty of other examples that mainly involve Asuka sexually teasing shinji.
This is something I still cant explain either. If her mother died by suicide , how did her soul end up in Unit 02. I suppose this is something else we have to decide for ourselves. On the point of the budget cuts to do with the last 2 episodes... The budget cuts came into force earlier than episode 24 I believe and so we should have seen some of the effects well before then. Even if you say that the budget cuts meant that the full story as Anno wanted it to told couldnt be, it still doesnt change my opinion that the last 2 episodes and 24 in particular were still very effective. I've said this before on another thread that the way in which the last 2 episodes were constructed might seem boring or pathetic but they are not. They make use of cinematic techniques that are not usually seen in anime and on to of that you do have the important points covered. Mainly the fact that Shinji has to make a desision about instrumentality and himself. We are shown his journey through that desision making process and this above all else was still an important part of the story through to EOE as well. The budget cuts dont really change the main story much but I think as a result we were left with an ending that was unique and quite effective. The whole sequence builds up in momentum until we get to the 'congratualtions' scene which is like a breath of fresh air. Episode 24 remains one of my favourite episodes. In the absence of a budget, they turned to more adventurous cinematography and I wouldnt change this even if there was a chance for them to go back and re do the episodes with money. Im glad they didn't get the budget. On a different note if anyone can think of a better title for this thread then let me know via PM. I'm bloody tired at the moment due to some heavy nights out and me being an insominac so I'm trying to get my sleep patterns back in order by staying up for 48 hours and then going to bed at a decent time tonight. Anyway the point is my brain isnt in gear at the moment so I've left the title as it is at the moment. |
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DragonsRevenge
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Holy crap, this is so disjointed. This isn't gonna work at all....
You should've just started a brand new conversation, or searched for any one of the other "myriad" of NGE threads that have no doubt been posted. |
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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Or maybe you could have offered up something constructive and made your own comments on what has already been said. There was nothing disjointed about the posts until you offered up that nugget of wisdom to me. Do not post comments that are not appropriate to the thread topic please.
Dean Last edited by Ikari1 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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This is more than a bit messy. Prefer the chaotic-yet-vaguely-directed conversation in the other thread.
Some bits from the last thread:
Uh, did you read the points JesuOtaku and I brought up? It's not there for "shits and giggles." It's not symbolic of Christianity at all. It's symbolic for other reasons: it has meaning within the story, obviously, and they're also symbols that resonate with the viewer themselves.
Didn't say or imply it was.
I'm not saying this about you, but about this sentiment that a lot of people share: it's very lazy. I'm not trying to be mean, either. But whenever I see a person say, "All interpretations are right. No one's wrong," and try to apply this to EVERYTHING, I see that as an excuse of, "Well, I cannot come up with a well-articulated and supported argument to back up my position, so I'm just pulling a cop-out because I don't want to be wrong." I've seen this nonsense pulled off for anything imaginable; for Christ's sake, I've met people who think that Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here" is a LOVE song! Evangelion has a concrete narrative. There's some ambiguity to the plot, yes. But the message is dead-on throughout the entire series, and culminates in an uplifting message at the end (both for the television finale, and the more subtle film). If a person examines it and stays consistent with their analysis, then they come to the same conclusion that others do. (For some, this process is short, for others, long.) Evangelion is not Serial Experiments Lain, Texhnolyze, 2001, Persona, Inland Empire, et cetera where there's the intention to run two or more possible interpretations for what EVERYTHING means. (And even those works have a solid framework that can be identified as a thematic narrative.) It can be difficult, yes, but people should not be so quick as to default to the idea that all interpretations are equally valid and supported.
You're forgetting the other occupant of that crater-made shoreline.
Instrumentality is still not going on. It's over, period. Done. Finished. Shinji rejected it, and SEELE's plan has failed. Everyone has their own individual soul back -- they just haven't formed their bodies yet. (See Rei and Yui's last monologues.) Will all of them come back? Probably not. But they each have their own thoughts and feelings to deal with, and any decision they make is theirs alone. Some people seriously believe that Shinji and Asuka will be alone: no one else will come back. Aside from directly contradicting clues to the contrary (oh, and ignoring that we're looking at an isolated situation), I would ask: so, out of BILLIONS OF PEOPLE, the only ones who would be able to have the will to live and face reality again would be two of the most disturbed teenagers on the planet who just went through hell? A fearful and timid boy and an arrogant and once-suicidal girl -- both of whom gave up on living at one point -- are the only ones who have the courage to face the future? No. Way. If a person has that little faith in humanity, then they need some serious help.
By that argument, Francis Ford Coppola is correct when he believes that Apocalypse Now: Redux is superior to the final cut from 1979 -- and that's just utter nonsense. You're already looking for a justification and find one that doesn't even adequately support it (or even necessarily means what you think it does).
Yes. Which isn't a bad thing: I like the first Rebuild movie well enough, though that's more for the fist-pumping climax than any visionary work. I'm hoping that the remaining works are more original in story.
But Rebuild is a separate canom...? And now for this thread:
Yes. They embody the drive of the narrative (the two prickly porcupines who want to be together but only end up hurting each other) better than any other two characters in the story, aside from Misato and Kaji. There are obvious parallels between the two, and they're given a large focus throughout EoE, with the final scene serving as the capstone to their first wave of troubles, as well as a bridge to the next. Neither come to really love each other during the series; it's more of a selfish desire to cling to one another. There's a lot of problems that come with that kind of relationship, and any possibilities to take it a step further to something more beneficial is impeded by one of their shortcomings. As such, it's emblematic of people who only seek an end to fill in their holes rather than each others'. That said, there's an obvious change in their relationship dynamics by the end of EoE. There hasn't been a massive change by either character, but there's a key difference: Asuka reaching out and showing compassion to Shinji for the first time since they met. They've both found the will to live on and have decided to endure whatever may come their way. Thus, the possibility for a successful relationship is established, and considering the optimism shown by Rei, Kaworu and Yui -- not to mention the push for and belief in humanity being able to overcome its inherent abrasive nature -- it's more likely than not that a very rocky, difficult yet rewarding relationship can result for the two. Do you find that agreeable? (Of course, this is ignoring a lot of the cool ideas about humans coming back and dealing with the post-apocalyptic setting. Only that portion of Japan is in ruins, but there's a LOT of rebuilding that needs to be done. Certainly more than a few power grids and resources must be attended to. But, hey, it's not in conflict with the main message, so who's to complain?)
No, Shinji couldn't have "willed" her there. It's purely up to the individual to return, NO ONE ELSE. (If that wasn't the case, then Shinji wouldn't have been alone for weeks/months after rejecting Instrumentality -- that loneliness pretty much causes him to go a bit bonkers, thus the strangling.)
Unlikely. Her mother was already around the bend, so to speak, and that she eventually committed suicide (perhaps partially?) because she couldn't take her husband's affair is no surprise.
No to mention that her step-mother may be the nurse who her father was having an affair with!
I am completely behind this. Anno and staff should just make a spin-off series. Call it the The (Mis)Adventures of Pen-Pen. I would all over it. |
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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Excellent, now we are getting somewhere. I dont care if this thread comes across as disjointed, at least we are not derailing other threads with our waffle about freud and religion.
This thread needed to be redone and you have just taken another step towards helping it get back off the ground. Cheers. I'll reply to your post in a minute. |
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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Um yes I did read your posts and felt I needed to also make my position clear as to where I stood with religious imagery in evangelion. My post doesnt have to deal with only the topics you and one other poster have been chatting about. I am confused however, in what way some of the apparently religious symbolism has a bigger role to play in the story. I think you have missed the point. I am talking purely about the cross shaped explosions, the crucifix symbolism with lillith and the eva series at EOE for example. Im not talking about all other non religious symbolism in evangelion. Any way I'm sorry if I have misunderstood but I'm sure you wouldnt mind explaining or giving an example when you next post just to clear this one up for me.
EDITED: Confusion got the better of me there.
Asuka? Yes if we are talking about her role and what has happened to her during the end of evangelion, then the end could be considered as her coming through her depression and realising that she doesnt have to be alone either. She finally achieved the will to live whilst fighting the eva series and subsequently she won out against her past demons that are shown in the tv series. Do you think that some of the flash backs in EOE relate specifically to Asuka then aswell or just Shinji and his desision? I say flash backs but that isnt nessesarilly what they are of course.
Agreed. The adam and eve symbolism at the end can sometimes fuel this idea that it will be only the two of them in the world left. Of course I dont believe this myself. Personally I look back at anno's depiction on the congratulations scene at the end of the tv series and kind of feel that everyone or at least some of the important people will choose to come back. With regards to Gendo Ikari. The EOE showed him recieving what I can only describe as some kind of alternative punishment instead of being involved in the Instrumentality project as a whole. I'm refering to the scene where Unit 01 is shown biting off Gendo's head. This scene still puzzles me as to what exactly it is trying to say.
Are you sure. To all intents and purposes Shinji temporarilly become a God with power over humanity's fate in his hands. Maybe it was Asuka's will that she be there next to Shinji at the beggining/ end of all things. There is no way of knowing for sure but I tend to agree with what you first said; that Asuka willed herself there in the first place. It is a much cleaner and coheirent explaination after all.
I smell scandle!
Thats an excelllent way to sum thier relationship up. From the series we can tell that they liked each other but like you siad the Hedgehogs dilemna comes into play and they naturally repel each other with only fleeting moments of conctact and understanding between the two of them.I like the point about at the end of evangelion, the foundations for a successful relationship are there where as they were not before. Last edited by Ikari1 on Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Read the first Aaron White quote in this post.
Actually, you were the one who stated that. (And JesuOtaku is a she.)
That revelation is only part of it; she still very well could have decided to not come back even after the fight with the Mass-Produced Evangelions.
Like you say, those aren't flashbacks: they're images and thoughts being mixed together. The ones we see before Third Impact is initiated are some of the emotions and ideas shared between certain individuals, particularly Shinji, Asuka and Misato.
Shinji never has the power of a God: everything that happens is done by Rei/Lilith. She acts on Shinji's wishes; when he rejects Instrumentality, that's it. Any events that transpire afterwards -- such as people forming their own bodies again -- are beyond him. |
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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On the last two points I understand now what you are saying. . With creating the new thread and everything and going back between different posts I got a little confused. I'm tired and I made a cockup there.
With regards to Asuka's individual desision to come back herself I now think that you are right. At one point in the EOE Rei does make it quite clear that ' you must regain your lost form of your own volition'. There is still some will somewhere, between the two of them that bought them to the same place however at the end. You could call it fate or what ever. That last chapter is called 'I need you'. I tend to think of this as commenting on the way in which Shinji relies upon Asuka and needs her and thus even though they did both come back of thier own volition, they did also maybe choose to end up together in some way. It's a difficult one. I would be prepared to put this point to one side if it were not for the Adam and Eve image we kind of get from it being the two of them together at the end. This image seems kind of deliberate on anno's part.It's more subtle than it is obvious though that connection. I like to think of it this way anyway. |
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zanarkand princess
Posts: 1484 |
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Ok like I said I have come to appreciate auska. She reminds me of myself a bit and as I said before I think rei is fascinating (I also think it's funny that we have Adam ,Eve and Lilith in eva) . So what should we expect in 2.0? I don't thinks it's quite a separate canon but another alternate re telling. Or maybe anno finally knows what he wants to say. Either way two things are clear 1) we have a new pilot and 2) we have two? new evas. That's why I brought up the auska/shinji thing in the first place. Now that you all have said that they did seem to be the image of adam and eve in EoE and they relied upon each ohter. I myself always had this thought of kaworu and rei being sort of together. Becoming one even though there is no proof of this. So do we need a new eva? It's making me wonder about this. Do we need a new dynamic and more importantly another female one? Maybe she's taking toji's place or maybe she's connected to kaji. It only concerns me because I don't think anno would put in a new pilot just to sell more figures and I'm really interested in what it means. It seems that a lot of people didn't even watch eva 1.0 though.
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