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In response to a previous post that spoiler[if Ayato won he would tune the world for the humans but if Quon won she would tune the world for teh Mulians] my question is that y did it even have to come to that choice to begin with wouldn't it have been easier to spoiler[ awaken Quon and have her just tune the world to begin with? ]

As with the movie, from what viewpoints are they being told from?

halostryke wrote:

In response to a previous post that spoiler[if Ayato won he would tune the world for the humans but if Quon won she would tune the world for teh Mulians] my question is that y did it even have to come to that choice to begin with wouldn't it have been easier to spoiler[ awaken Quon and have her just tune the world to begin with? ]

As with the movie, from what viewpoints are they being told from?

spoiler[Only Ayato can awaken Quon. The system only works with both Ollins. Well the movie is told using some of the scenes from the series, but quite a bit of it is new footage that happens "between" scenes in the series. So you get to hear answers and explanations that they didn't give in the series.]

I may have some interesting factoid about the whole "time going slower inside the Tokyo Jupiter" thingy. If I remember correctly from my many hours of Discovery Channel watching the Mayan, or at least one Mayan ruler, was not too keen on their world comming to an end in 2014. They were so worried in fact that they came up with a solution. From what I remember (and bear in mind that I saw this years ago) they thought they could pospone the deadline by slowing down time. However I'm no too clear on how they managed to do that. Seein as how RahXephon is heavily influenced by Mayan mythos then it would be fairt to assume that the time slowing down thing is inspired by that story. Myabe someone with knowledge of Mayan history can shed further light on this or at least confirm or deny my claims?

The worlding ending in 2014? Why am I wasting my time in skool.... Just kidding Smile

Fandrez wrote:

The worlding ending in 2014? Why am I wasting my time in skool.... Just kidding

the year is actually 2012, so 8 more years! Razz

and about why both quon and ayato needed to participate in the tuning of the world, i believe it has to do with the mesoamerican belief that this world will be destroyed by earthquakes. quon and ayato slam one another's body against the ground and expel (sonic) shockwaves, causing damage to the world and the earth to shake. note that ayato and quon are ollin - ollin translates to "movement" - the movement of the sun's path and seismic movement (i.e. earthquakes).

did the mayans specifically outline that these "movements" would be such of a catastrophic nature or is it we assume that movements mean earthquakes and such?

if i doesn't mean earthquakes and such y coudn't "movements" be related to moving from our current stage of humanity, evolution, intelliegnce, or soemthing for the better?

I believe that when they are referring to "movements" that they are actually referring to movements in the musical sense. While it is true that the series uses Mayan beliefs, it also involves itself quite a bit with music. In music, a movement is "A self-contained section of an extended composition" Since each episode in RahXephon is called a movement, you can see that this makes sense. Each episode is a piece that together makes up the whole series. The tuning may involve earthquakes or whatnot, but it's not from them flinging each other around, but rather from the songs that they sing (song of destruction or song of life) The music that they are singing would definetly be destructive if amplified enough, which I'm sure it was.

The reason they are slamming each other around is that Ayato does NOT want the current world to end while Quon DOES. Later after spoiler[Haruka enters their minds, or whatever you want to call what we see when Quon, Haruka, and Ayato are in the school, Quon decides that she she doesn't want the current world to end, that she actually loves Itsuki.]

if you read my first post on this thread, you would recall that ollin translates to "movement" from the nahuatl language, the language spoken by the mesoamericans (aztecs, mayans, olmecs, etc.). according to the mayan/aztec calendar, the beginning of our world is marked by the date 4-ollin ("4-movement" - it also symbolizes earthquake.).

here's a translation of the relevent excerpt from the mesoamerican "myth of the five suns":

Quote:

The fifth Sun, its sign 4-Movement, is called the Sun of Movement because it moves and follows its path.

And as the elders continue to say, under this Sun there will be earthquakes and hunger, and then our end shall come.

my source is the aztecs: the rise and fall of an empire by sergei gruzinski, pp.133 - isbn 0-8109-2821-3.

also please read what i wrote concerning music in rahxephon.

there was something that i had neglected to point out: note that both ayato and quon are artists. quon plays a violin, while ayato paints and draws - and both are "instrumentalists." as they hone their arts and accept their fates as the tuners of the world, they eventually attain yoltéotl, which if you recall from my previous posts translates to "deified heart," "heart of all" or "heart of artist/seer" from the nahuatl language.

zhuang wrote:

if you read my first post on this thread, you would recall that ollin translates to "movement" from the nahuatl language, the language spoken by the mesoamericans (aztecs, mayans, olmecs, etc.). according to the mayan/aztec calendar, the beginning of our world is marked by the date 4-ollin ("4-movement" - it also symbolizes earthquake.).

here's a translation of the relevent excerpt from the mesoamerican "myth of the five suns":

Quote:

The fifth Sun, its sign 4-Movement, is called the Sun of Movement because it moves and follows its path.

And as the elders continue to say, under this Sun there will be earthquakes and hunger, and then our end shall come.

my source is the aztecs: the rise and fall of an empire by sergei gruzinski, pp.133 - isbn 0-8109-2821-3.

also please read what i wrote concerning music in rahxephon.

there was something that i had neglected to point out: note that both ayato and quon are artists. quon plays a violin, while ayato paints and draws - and both are "instrumentalists." as they hone their arts and accept their fates as the tuners of the world, they eventually attain yoltéotl, which if you recall from my previous posts translates to "deified heart," "heart of all" or "heart of artist/seer" from the nahuatl language.

I understand what you are saying, however remember that we are talking about a fictional series, and even though it follows mayan beliefs, remember that most of the time (in anime and other works as well) only parts of the beliefs are used, and only to drive the story. In other words, one cannot use only what you have said to explain the events of the story and their meanings. It is clear that they use both aspects of both Mayan beliefs (or myths if you prefer) but also clearly they take aspects not from the Mayans and mix them together, creating their own version of what is to occur and how.

For instance: spoiler[in the end the tuning of the world has taken place, and the world has been "suffused with sound" and yet the world is not destroyed.]

And it can be shown from the difference in meaning of Itxtli from what you refer to it as and what it is in the series. This is taken directly from the liner notes: " The Mishima Reika, who intervenes in the memories and judgment of the people around Ayato, was Ixtli, a being who could be call the heart of the Xephon. For the RahXephon to make the world respond and provide blood as a heart, there is a need to know the pain and suffering that fills the world. In order to make all things resonate (which means "To correspond closely or harmoniously") ... Itxtli was a being that took on the form that he desired from the bottom of his heart, so that she might be a good companion for Ollin, when he attained Yoteotl." Which shows that Ixtli is not his personality.

Also, I don't believe Ayato being an painter has anything to do with him reaching yolteotl. Several times they refer to him as not being able to produce a good timbre when he is in the Xephon. Also when Quon asks if he wants to play the violin he says that he can't, and then she says "of course you can, you're an instrumentalist."

And of course attaining Yolteotl means attaining spiritual wisdom or enlightenment.

In Rah, the tuning of the world refers to bringing the world, either to harmony, or to ..well.. chaos (in other words the destruction of man).. if you recall when Itsuki asks Ayato to listen to the tape of Quon playing, he says he can hear discord in her songs, that even she doesn't realize is there. This is because she is a mu and (at the time unconsciously) she wishes for the world of humans to end so that the Mu may live there. Ayato on the other hand does not.

Also the two "True Sacred RahXephons" which is what the final form of Ayato and Quon is called after they attain Yolteotl are diametric or, in other words, exactly opposite.So when they are fighting after they have attained Yolteotl and gained the title of "Rah" Quon is at first signing to bring the world to chaos (the end of human existence) while Ayato is singing to bring the world to harmony (mankinds lives on, but the mu are gone because they don't belong in this universe)

Also the two "True Sacred RahXephons" which is what the final form of Ayato and Quon is called after they attain Yolteotl are diametric or, in other words, exactly opposite. As in Ayato wants

In the end we can debate this probably forever, but what you have to look at is that this show is not meant to follow the Mayan theories exactly, and usually when this is put it it's just to make a show look "cool".

anyone know the name of teh Rahxephon movie? judging by the thread it looks like i must check it ou

also what point of view is the movie being told from?

The Japanese release is called RahXephon Tagen Hensoukyoku and the US release will be called RahXephon The Motion Picture and will be release 7/20.

It's not really a different point of view per se, but it shows things that were never seen in the TV series and answers some questions that weren't answered also.

The Japanese release is called RahXephon Tagen Hensoukyoku and the US release will be called RahXephon The Motion Picture and will be release 7/20.

It's not really a different point of view per se, but it shows things that were never seen in the TV series and answers some questions that weren't answered also.

halostryke Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Rahxephon ?'s

anyone know the name of teh Rahxephon movie? judging by the thread it looks like i must check it ou

also what point of view is the movie being told from?

zhuang wrote:
if you read my first post on this thread, you would recall that ollin translates to "movement" from the nahuatl language, the language spoken by the mesoamericans (aztecs, mayans, olmecs, etc.). according to the mayan/aztec calendar, the beginning of our world is marked by the date 4-ollin ("4-movement" - it also symbolizes earthquake.).

here's a translation of the relevent excerpt from the mesoamerican "myth of the five suns":
Quote:
The fifth Sun, its sign 4-Movement, is called the Sun of Movement because it moves and follows its path.

And as the elders continue to say, under this Sun there will be earthquakes and hunger, and then our end shall come.

my source is the aztecs: the rise and fall of an empire by sergei gruzinski, pp.133 - isbn 0-8109-2821-3.

also please read what i wrote concerning music in rahxephon.

there was something that i had neglected to point out: note that both ayato and quon are artists. quon plays a violin, while ayato paints and draws - and both are "instrumentalists." as they hone their arts and accept their fates as the tuners of the world, they eventually attain yoltéotl, which if you recall from my previous posts translates to "deified heart," "heart of all" or "heart of artist/seer" from the nahuatl language.

I understand what you are saying, however remember that we are talking about a fictional series, and even though it follows mayan beliefs, remember that most of the time (in anime and other works as well) only parts of the beliefs are used, and only to drive the story. In other words, one cannot use only what you have said to explain the events of the story and their meanings. It is clear that they use both aspects of both Mayan beliefs (or myths if you prefer) but also clearly they take aspects not from the Mayans and mix them together, creating their own version of what is to occur and how.

For instance: SPOILER:in the end the tuning of the world has taken place, and the world has been "suffused with sound" and yet the world is not destroyed.

And it can be shown from the difference in meaning of Itxtli from what you refer to it as and what it is in the series. This is taken directly from the liner notes: " The Mishima Reika, who intervenes in the memories and judgment of the people around Ayato, was Ixtli, a being who could be call the heart of the Xephon. For the RahXephon to make the world respond and provide blood as a heart, there is a need to know the pain and suffering that fills the world. In order to make all things resonate (which means "To correspond closely or harmoniously") ... Itxtli was a being that took on the form that he desired from the bottom of his heart, so that she might be a good companion for Ollin, when he attained Yoteotl." Which shows that Ixtli is not his personality.

Also, I don't believe Ayato being an painter has anything to do with him reaching yolteotl. Several times they refer to him as not being able to produce a good timbre when he is in the Xephon. Also when Quon asks if he wants to play the violin he says that he can't, and then she says "of course you can, you're an instrumentalist."

And of course attaining Yolteotl means attaining spiritual wisdom or enlightenment.

In Rah, the tuning of the world refers to bringing the world, either to harmony, or to ..well.. chaos (in other words the destruction of man).. if you recall when Itsuki asks Ayato to listen to the tape of Quon playing, he says he can hear discord in her songs, that even she doesn't realize is there. This is because she is a mu and (at the time unconsciously) she wishes for the world of humans to end so that the Mu may live there. Ayato on the other hand does not.

Also the two "True Sacred RahXephons" which is what the final form of Ayato and Quon is called after they attain Yolteotl are diametric or, in other words, exactly opposite.So when they are fighting after they have attained Yolteotl and gained the title of "Rah" Quon is at first signing to bring the world to chaos (the end of human existence) while Ayato is singing to bring the world to harmony (mankinds lives on, but the mu are gone because they don't belong in this universe)

Also the two "True Sacred RahXephons" which is what the final form of Ayato and Quon is called after they attain Yolteotl are diametric or, in other words, exactly opposite. As in Ayato wants

In the end we can debate this probably forever, but what you have to look at is that this show is not meant to follow the Mayan theories exactly, and usually when this is put it it's just to make a show look "cool".

zhuang Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:44 am Post subject: Re: Rahxephon ?'s

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if you read my first post on this thread, you would recall that ollin translates to "movement" from the nahuatl language, the language spoken by the mesoamericans (aztecs, mayans, olmecs, etc.). according to the mayan/aztec calendar, the beginning of our world is marked by the date 4-ollin ("4-movement" - it also symbolizes earthquake.).

here's a translation of the relevent excerpt from the mesoamerican "myth of the five suns":
Quote:
The fifth Sun, its sign 4-Movement, is called the Sun of Movement because it moves and follows its path.

And as the elders continue to say, under this Sun there will be earthquakes and hunger, and then our end shall come.

my source is the aztecs: the rise and fall of an empire by sergei gruzinski, pp.133 - isbn 0-8109-2821-3.

also please read what i wrote concerning music in rahxephon.

there was something that i had neglected to point out: note that both ayato and quon are artists. quon plays a violin, while ayato paints and draws - and both are "instrumentalists." as they hone their arts and accept their fates as the tuners of the world, they eventually attain yoltéotl, which if you recall from my previous posts translates to "deified heart," "heart of all" or "heart of artist/seer" from the nahuatl language.

Kazuki-san Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:33 pm Post subject: Re: Rahxephon ?'s

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I believe that when they are referring to "movements" that they are actually referring to movements in the musical sense. While it is true that the series uses Mayan beliefs, it also involves itself quite a bit with music. In music, a movement is "A self-contained section of an extended composition" Since each episode in RahXephon is called a movement, you can see that this makes sense. Each episode is a piece that together makes up the whole series. The tuning may involve earthquakes or whatnot, but it's not from them flinging each other around, but rather from the songs that they sing (song of destruction or song of life) The music that they are singing would definetly be destructive if amplified enough, which I'm sure it was.

The reason they are slamming each other around is that Ayato does NOT want the current world to end while Quon DOES. Later after SPOILER:Haruka enters their minds, or whatever you want to call what we see when Quon, Haruka, and Ayato are in the school, Quon decides that she she doesn't want the current world to end, that she actually loves Itsuki.

halostryke Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: Rahxephon ?'s

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did the mayans specifically outline that these "movements" would be such of a catastrophic nature or is it we assume that movements mean earthquakes and such?

if i doesn't mean earthquakes and such y coudn't "movements" be related to moving from our current stage of humanity, evolution, intelliegnce, or soemthing for the better?

zhuang Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Rahxephon ?'s

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Fandrez wrote:
The worlding ending in 2014? Why am I wasting my time in skool.... Just kidding

the year is actually 2012, so 8 more years!

and about why both quon and ayato needed to participate in the tuning of the world, i believe it has to do with the mesoamerican belief that this world will be destroyed by earthquakes. quon and ayato slam one another's body against the ground and expel (sonic) shockwaves, causing damage to the world and the earth to shake. note that ayato and quon are ollin - ollin translates to "movement" - the movement of the sun's path and seismic movement (i.e. earthquakes).

Fandrez Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Rahxephon ?'s

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The worlding ending in 2014? Why am I wasting my time in skool.... Just kidding

kamiboy Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Rahxephon ?'s

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I may have some interesting factoid about the whole "time going slower inside the Tokyo Jupiter" thingy. If I remember correctly from my many hours of Discovery Channel watching the Mayan, or at least one Mayan ruler, was not too keen on their world comming to an end in 2014. They were so worried in fact that they came up with a solution. From what I remember (and bear in mind that I saw this years ago) they thought they could pospone the deadline by slowing down time. However I'm no too clear on how they managed to do that. Seein as how RahXephon is heavily influenced by Mayan mythos then it would be fairt to assume that the time slowing down thing is inspired by that story. Myabe someone with knowledge of Mayan history can shed further light on this or at least confirm or deny my claims?

Kazuki-san Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:45 am Post subject: Re: Rahxephon ?'s

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halostryke wrote:
In response to a previous post that SPOILER:if Ayato won he would tune the world for the humans but if Quon won she would tune the world for teh Mulians my question is that y did it even have to come to that choice to begin with wouldn't it have been easier to SPOILER: awaken Quon and have her just tune the world to begin with?

As with the movie, from what viewpoints are they being told from?

SPOILER:Only Ayato can awaken Quon. The system only works with both Ollins. Well the movie is told using some of the scenes from the series, but quite a bit of it is new footage that happens "between" scenes in the series. So you get to hear answers and explanations that they didn't give in the series.

halostryke Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:06 am Post subject: Re: Rahxephon ?'s

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In response to a previous post that SPOILER:if Ayato won he would tune the world for the humans but if Quon won she would tune the world for teh Mulians my question is that y did it even have to come to that choice to begin with wouldn't it have been easier to SPOILER: awaken Quon and have her just tune the world to begin with?

As with the movie, from what viewpoints are they being told from?

Kazuki-san Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: Rahxephon ?'s

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mpchi wrote:
That's some very interesting info! They do seem to fit very well with the plot, given these as the mayan background that Rahxephon is based on.

But one thing I don't quite understand, at least it doesn't seem clear to me. SPOILER:At the end, when we see a grown up Ayato & Haruka living happily ever after, was it reality in the new world created by Ayato, or was it just a 'dream' of what Ayato would hope for, but is all in his head? It does seem hard to comprehend cause Haruka actually died right before Ayato(He killed her actually) when that blue plane exploded. Yet Haruka had this conversation with Maya soon after, as if a "my body is gone, but my spirit still remain" kind of thing going on. Then we see Ayato remembering some of his pass memories with Haruka, and then we see that happy ending. Not too sure if its a real thing happening or an imaginery thing like in Evangelion's TV ending.

Well actually there is a contradiction between the series and the movie in this case MOVIE SPOILER:The movie is a retelling of the series from different points of view not shown in the series. It also gives away answers not given in the series. At the end of the movie, we see Haruka as an old woman, Reika is now Reika Kamina and Haruka is her grandmother. Haruka tells her stories about Ayato. In the movie, Ayato in the end is NOT human, and can never return to being human. He still comes to visit Haruka, but he can't stay there permanently. So I can't really say what happens at the end of the series, considering the end of the movie is so different.

mpchi Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: Rahxephon ?'s

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That's some very interesting info! They do seem to fit very well with the plot, given these as the mayan background that Rahxephon is based on.

But one thing I don't quite understand, at least it doesn't seem clear to me. SPOILER:At the end, when we see a grown up Ayato & Haruka living happily ever after, was it reality in the new world created by Ayato, or was it just a 'dream' of what Ayato would hope for, but is all in his head? It does seem hard to comprehend cause Haruka actually died right before Ayato(He killed her actually) when that blue plane exploded. Yet Haruka had this conversation with Maya soon after, as if a "my body is gone, but my spirit still remain" kind of thing going on. Then we see Ayato remembering some of his pass memories with Haruka, and then we see that happy ending. Not too sure if its a real thing happening or an imaginery thing like in Evangelion's TV ending.

zhuang Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Rahxephon ?'s

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here's what i can explain about "ixtli" and "yoltéotl" and the role of music in rahxephon (plus SPOILER:the mayan outfits worn by maya and mamoru nearing the end of the series) - they're all related:

rahxephon uses as its foundation the mesoamerican myth of the five suns. the myth of the five suns is the creation/eschatological myth from which the mayans, aztecs and other mesoamericans based their calendar systems. according to this myth, the world has already been created and destroyed four times. the current world, that of the fifth sun, will end on the winter solstice of the year 2012, that is 21 december 2012. (in rahxephon, the date 28 december is wrong. and we don't have to concern ourselves with the first four suns, as they aren't relevant to the story.) the fifth sun was born on 4-ollin of the mayan/aztec calendar. in nahuatl (the language of the aztecs and mayans), ollin translates to "day" or "movement", the movement of the sun's path and seismic movement; the symbol 4-ollin also means earthquake. thus, the fifth sun is called ollintonatiuh or the "sun of movement." this current world will fall victim to famine and earthquakes leading to its inevitable demise.

each episode of rahxephn is called a movement - in music terminology, a movement refers to a section of music that has its own key, rhythmic structure and themes and is part of an extended musical composition. one can also think of a movement in terms of a musical cycle, as the end of one movement leads to the beginning of another. SPOILER:ayato and quon are "instrumentalists," both are referred to as ollin and fated to "tune" the world, bring it to the next movement - in other words, destroy this world and give rise to a new world.

ixtli means "face" or "personality." yoltéotl translates to "deified heart," "heart of all" or "heart of artist/seer." it derives from the word yóllotl, which means "heart" and symbolizes life/dynamism. both yoltéotl and yóllotl have the same root as the word ollin. in the nahuatl language, two words can be juxtaposed to express a different meaning: ixtli, yóllotl ("faces and hearts") refers to a person's intrinsic self - one's personality or "face" developed through learning and through one's "heart" or life.

thus, for ayato (and quon) to mature and figure out what kind of person he is, he must attain yoltéotl. to do that, he must combine ixtli and yóllotl (just as those words are combined in the nahuatl language). he has yóllotl, but he still has to develop his own personality or ixtli. ixtli appears in the metaphorical form of mishima SPOILER:(reika/haruka). why mishima? SPOILER:recall that ayato's memories were altered while he remained within tokyo jupiter after the mu war - the image of a girl named mishima in a yellow dress and ribbon standing upon a rock by the beach was the only thought left unchanged. ayato's true memories and personality are thus represented by his memory of mishima, the only thing he retains of his former self.

if anyone wants, i can cite my sources. there's more to be said about rahxephon in general - this series has so much more depth than a lot of other series that have been released in the past 4 years. i love it!

Kazuki-san Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:37 am Post subject: Re: Rahxephon ?'s

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mpchi wrote:
I remember I read an older Rahxephon thread here that gave the series an even deeper dimension on the plot, as a number of others contributed.

From what I roughly remember: SPOILER:Bahbem was a human from long ago that has some sort of relationship with the Mulians. He stole the Mu technology to develop the whole Rahxephon System to tune the world, kind of like playing God. On the other hand, Mu was on the opposite side, keeping Ayato within Tokyo Jupiter from Bahbem's hand. However, TERRA on the other hand was thrown in the middle, thinking the Mulians were just invaders from a different dimension, and knowing Ayato being a key person, but without knowing the big picture. So after Haruka snatched Ayato out of Tokyo Jupiter, the whole situation went chaotic, which lead to the world tuning that Bahbem wants. This kind of put an interesting twist to Mu and Maya as the Mulians were mostly portrayed as the bad guys, but turn out to be just a race with its own agenda (while Kuki used Mu's military power and caused the big battle later on) and tried to protect Ayato from the tuning thing.

But again, these are rough ideas I recall from the old thread, and I may have got some facts wrong, so forgive me if I do. Maybe you can do a search to dig it up.

Well SPOILER:in the RahXephon movie, Babhem explains that he is the first Mulian to come to earth. (along with Quon). The Mu did want the tuning to happen, but they did not want it to happen as early as it did.

I watched the series about 5 or 6 times, and the movie 3 or 4 before it became as clear to me as it is now.

Damn i just read this whole thing and alot of the things you people where saying i didn't even know were true about RahXephon so i heed all this info and i ill keep it all in thank even though this isnt my post

Quote:

[/quote]

kazuki-san, sorry, i can't help myself. Very Happy

Kazuki-san wrote:

For instance: spoiler[in the end the tuning of the world has taken place, and the world has been "suffused with sound" and yet the world is not destroyed.]

in the mesoamerican "myth of the five suns," the world has been destroyed and reborn four times so far - each time the world is ridden of something, not totally obliterated, and the world is not the same as it was before. also, in the end of rahxephon, spoiler[we see the world being encased in a large white egg. the screen goes black, and we then hear a cracking sound, the sound of that egg cracking. afterwards, we see an older ayato and a different setting than previously - the world has been "reborn."] it may not be a clean slate, but just as a new day starts with everything intact, the world starts anew.

Kazuki-san wrote:

And it can be shown from the difference in meaning of Itxtli from what you refer to it as and what it is in the series. This is taken directly from the liner notes: " The Mishima Reika, who intervenes in the memories and judgment of the people around Ayato, was Ixtli, a being who could be call the heart of the Xephon. For the RahXephon to make the world respond and provide blood as a heart, there is a need to know the pain and suffering that fills the world. In order to make all things resonate (which means "To correspond closely or harmoniously") ... Itxtli was a being that took on the form that he desired from the bottom of his heart, so that she might be a good companion for Ollin, when he attained Yoteotl." Which shows that Ixtli is not his personality.

yes, the creators did take liberties with their use of mesoamerican beliefs, but i highly doubt they would completely change/ignore the meaning of ixtli for their needs. in fact, they were quite aware of its meaning and its usage. for example, ayato looks at himself a lot in the mirror in self-reflection (no pun intended) - 14th movement (episode 14) is called "the boy in the mirror"; quon refers to the vermillion as a bad reflection that ayato must not look into. in mesoamerican culture, a teacher helps a student develop ixtli (personality, character) by metaphorically "putting a mirror in front of [the student]" in order so that the student can see his/her own face and develop self-knowledge.

in my first post, i wrote

Quote:

in the nahuatl language, two words can be juxtaposed to express a different meaning: ixtli, yóllotl ("faces and hearts") refers to a person's intrinsic self - one's personality or "face" developed through learning and through one's "heart" or life.

Quote:

thus, for ayato (and quon) to mature and figure out what kind of person he is, he must attain yoltéotl. to do that, he must combine ixtli and yóllotl (just as those words are combined in the nahuatl language). he has yóllotl, but he still has to develop his own personality or ixtli. ixtli appears in the metaphorical form of mishima spoiler[(reika/haruka)]. why mishima? spoiler[recall that ayato's memories were altered while he remained within tokyo jupiter after the mu war - the image of a girl named mishima in a yellow dress and ribbon standing upon a rock by the beach was the only thought left unchanged. ayato's true memories and personality are thus represented by his memory of mishima, the only thing he retains of his former self.]

this goes well with the info that you quoted from the liner notes: "In order to make all things resonate (which means "To correspond closely or harmoniously") ... Itxtli was a being that took on the form that he desired from the bottom of his heart, so that she might be a good companion for Ollin, when he attained Yoteotl." ayato/ollin has yóllotl ("heart," "life"), but in order to attain yoltéotl, a "deified heart," he must pair up (his heart) with ixtli - ixtli, yóllotl ("faces and hearts"): a person's intrinsic self, one's personality or "face" developed through learning and through one's "heart" or life. yoltéotl symbolizes this, a metaphor for ayato's mature, enlightened self and who he truly is. mishima reika is not his personality, but "ayato's true memories and personality are represented by his memory of mishima, the only thing he retains of his former self [before tokyo jupiter came into existence]." she not only "intervenes in the memories and judgment of the people around Ayato," she affects ayato's judgment as well - in this way, she guides him in developing his own true personality.

Kazuki-san wrote:

Also, I don't believe Ayato being an painter has anything to do with him reaching yolteotl. Several times they refer to him as not being able to produce a good timbre when he is in the Xephon. Also when Quon asks if he wants to play the violin he says that he can't, and then she says "of course you can, you're an instrumentalist."

yes it does. to attain yoltéotl, ayato must improve himself not just as an instrumentalist but also as a person. he constantly paints and draws the same subject, mishima reika, as he tries to retain what he had previously lost and which he desires the most.

Kazuki-san wrote:

And of course attaining Yolteotl means attaining spiritual wisdom or enlightenment.

like i had written before, yoltéotl translates to "deified heart", "heart of all [people]" or "heart of an artist/seer".

and the rest of the stuff you wrote... well, i can't argue with you there. i agree with you about the dualism of ayato and quon; in fact, i can see how it could work for my arguments - ayato and quon are "reflections" of one another. and recall spoiler[in the end, ayato defeats quon, but as she explodes quon is assimilated into ayato - while they are reflections, they are one in the same; they are both ollin.]

of course, these are all interpretations - unless we spoke directly with the creators, we can't say for sure what exactly they were trying to express. i agree that there's more to rahxephon than mesoamerican beliefs, but this is the one aspect that i know enough to discuss. Confused

but thanks, kazuki-san, for a great discussion! Wink

zhuang wrote:

in the mesoamerican "myth of the five suns," the world has been destroyed and reborn four times so far - each time the world is ridden of something, not totally obliterated, and the world is not the same as it was before. also, in the end of rahxephon, spoiler[we see the world being encased in a large white egg. the screen goes black, and we then hear a cracking sound, the sound of that egg cracking. afterwards, we see an older ayato and a different setting than previously - the world has been "reborn."] it may not be a clean slate, but just as a new day starts with everything intact, the world starts anew.

quon refers to the vermillion as a bad reflection that ayato must not look into

Am I to assume that you haven't seen the movie? Because the movie presents an alternate take on things spoiler[in the end there is no older Ayato, as he is no longer human he can only visit Haruka for short periods, and he looks just like he always did (and Haruka is very old at this time, Reika is her granddaughter) and we do not see the earth encased in the egg]

The Vermillion is in fact a Dolem (well a copy of one) in other words, it is a bad reflection of a real dolem.

I'm trying to take elements from both the movie and the series, so if you haven't seen it it may not all make sense what I'm saying.

I'm sure we could debate this forever, but maybe we should put it to rest... or.. take a trip and visit with the creators and demand the answers! Very Happy

agree - i'm not gonna continue on with this either, although it was quite fun. Very Happy

and, yes, i was avoiding discussion about the movie.

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