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Re: Nudity in Elfen Lied

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I debated for a while when writing my previous post if I should include drama in my analysis, as it's clear that drama is present in the series. However, a problem swiftly arises when classifying series as 'drama' in that the majority of shows have drama in them to a greater or lesser extent, and calling them all drama series would make such a description less useful. As such, I tend to only classify series where drama is the main focus of the series, above and beyond anything else as drama. A couple of examples would be furuba and KGNE.

On to Elfen Lied - I felt that the drama present, significant though it was in driving the plot, came about more as a result of the horror and harem elements that were already presented beforehand. In a sense, it's impossible to have any vaguely decent horror or harem series without any drama, so the fact that it would be present should be a given - it was the way in which it comes naturally from the other elements without being the focus of the series that makes me not really think of Elfen Lied as a drama.
Of course, that's just my view on drama to explain to you why I didn't include it - if you want to refer to Elfen Lied as a drama that's perfectly understandable, and I'm fine with that.

Still, that hasn't answered your point about drama fans liking it too, thus broadening the appeal. Superficially, that would seem to make sense - lots of people like drama, so having a strong dramatic component should attract more fans, right? But when I think about some of the drama fans I know, even though I think they'd like the drama I get the feeling they'd be less than happy with the other elements. They'd need to be horror and harem fans too in order for them to like Elfen Lied.
So my argument against this point is really that rather than more genre elements attracting more people, the more genre elements you focus on the less people will like the show, because only people who like (or at least don't actively dislike) all the genre elements present will be fans. Of course, the trade-off for making a more niche show is that those who do like it will probably like it a lot.

Personally however, I don't think appealing to a certain sex in a certain age group is very effective , since I don't really see a particularly strong correlation with old men and harem shows, or bloody gore... Which is why I stated that it's target audience would be better based off of its viewer's taste rather than a person's age and sex ...

It's based of the viewers tastes as well as their age and sex - the things are intrinsically intertwined. It just so happens that the vast majority of people whose tastes involve harem shows and bloody gore are part of a demographic of men in their late teens to twenties.

Ramadahl wrote:

Considering the target demographic for both types fall squarely in the seinen category it's natural to expect there to be some kind of crossover.

I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand what you mean by that.

To put the same point another way, this is how I first explained my impression of Elfen Lied to a friend: -

"Man, I swear the production went something like this... "
- "Hey, this particular demographic really digs those harem shows!"
- "Hey, wow, they also dig these really bloody, violent shows!"
- "Dude, I have an awesome idea! Let's make a show that has both in it - that'll make us loads of cash off'f those guys!"

Of course, saying it like that is kinda crude, which is why I couched it in terms like "crossover within the demographic" when I posted previously.

Hmm... ever get that feeling that there's a massive hole in your argument but you don't know where it is? Because I'm sorta feeling I've really left myself open somewhere *checks flies*

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean, correct me if I'm wrong.
You mean to say is that Elfen Lied is serious and your agreeing with that because with all the anime you'd watch this is the most serious. And you also included not being serious you won't watch elfen lied if it is not serious? can you elaborate more of what you mean. And also about this nudity thing about agreeing and disagreeing.

Sorry but I didn't know what you mean 'bout seriousness in anime thing about nudity and not being serious in this series.

In my own opionion the nudity in Elfen Lied was used to display a more serious side to the show, As for Elfen Lied not being serious, i disagree completely. This show was as serious as I've seen in a lot of anime. Its not like there was nudity everywhere in the show. If there was nudity everywhere id agree, but there isnt.

Mohawk52 wrote:

I'm afraid that makes you look a little nieve about Japanese otaku-ism then.

Either that, or it makes you look a little paranoid .

If you think that elfen Lied's drama is a direct result of it's horror and harem elements, that's fine... though I fail to see why that invalidates its dramatic components; every drama needs a catalyst of some form, and the fact that EL's came from its horror and harem elements is irrelevant, because it was still a very important aspect of the show (and would belong in the "greater extent" category)

...but anyway, if you think that a horror or harem show having drama as a focus is a given; allow me to name a few shows that would disagree with you... Any slasher film, Inukami, hayate no gotoku, -- there's probably more, but I tend to stay away from those shows...

Ramadahl wrote:

Of course, the trade-off for making a more niche show is that those who do like it will probably like it a lot.

So, you agree that Elfen Lied tried to appeal to a broad audience?

You see, this is where I disagree with you... I just don't see how being a "male in their late teens to early twenties" determines that you'll like harems and gore more than the next person. I've shown Elfen Lied to just as many girls as I have guys; and to your utter shock and dismay... There were actually more guys that couldn't take the nudity and gore than women. Society can tell me all they want that guys like gore, etc, etc. more than women, but my personal experiences have taught me that this is quite frankly, a false stereotype. And until I see hard evidence (mass surveys for example) that prove that my experiences were abnormal, I just can't take that argument seriously.

And anyways, I'd say that the story is more of a romance than a harem, seeing as Kouta's cousin and Lucy are the only women that actually try to hook up/flirt with kouta... And while you're impression of Elfen Lied as a harem is duly noted (and there are trace harem elements), it is a much stronger romantic tragedy; this would also help to explain why the girls I showed this too liked it as well (by your logic)...

You see, you can say it's made strictly for seinen, and mention the gore and harem elements; but then you also have to admit that there are also aspects that would seem to be targeted at female viewers (based on societies stereotype of them); the drama and romance; which are just as much (if not more) a part of the show as it's harem and horror counterparts...

Even if the show's origin may have started like that; that does not mean that the man producing the show did not have other plans in mind. I mean, who would take pride in a creating a show with no substance? I've already given reasons why I believe the show was meant to be taken seriously; and that the "seinen" elements were simply put in there to increase it's mass appeal; and I apologize in advance since I've assumed you share the same feelings towards elfen lied as the thread starter... I'm probably wrong in that...

That makes no sense. If you believe, as you have stated, that those scenes of Nana spoiler[being shackled naked in chains and brutally abused] was not otaku fodder, then you either do not realise that it is just another example from the hugh pile of other similar depictions that exist in Japan, or you are in denial that that sort of thing exists. I will guess it is more the former than the latter. As for being paranoid? What?

I think you're misinterpreting what he's saying... he's saying that he feels that the nudity was used to display a serious part of the show, and that he doesn't agree that the show was not meant to be taken seriously; if the nudity mentioned had been everywhere in the show, he would agree, but since it wasn't, he doesn't (duh).

Mowhawk52 wrote:

]That makes no sense. If you believe, as you have stated, that those scenes of Nana spoiler[being shackled naked in chains and brutally abused] was not otaku fodder, then you either do not realise that it is just another example from the hugh pile of other similar depictions that exist in Japan, or you are in denial that that sort of thing exists. I will guess it is more the former than the latter. As for being paranoid? What?

I never said it wasn't otaku fodder.
My comment about you being paranoid relates to you stating that I was being naive in thinking that the scene in question wasn't specifically included to sexually appeal to a miniscule section of the market. My reply was that rather than me being naive, you were being overly paranoid to imply that the target audience in japan is packed full of perverts into loli-bandage. Rather than that, it seems far more likely to me that the scene was there to make Nana more "moe". So, fanservice, but not sexual.

Ramadahl wrote:

Mowhawk52 wrote: ]That makes no sense. If you believe, as you have stated, that those scenes of Nana spoiler[being shackled naked in chains and brutally abused] was not otaku fodder, then you either do not realise that it is just another example from the hugh pile of other similar depictions that exist in Japan, or you are in denial that that sort of thing exists. I will guess it is more the former than the latter. As for being paranoid? What? I never said it wasn't otaku fodder. My comment about you being paranoid relates to you stating that I was being naive in thinking that the scene in question wasn't specifically included to sexually appeal to a miniscule section of the market. My reply was that rather than me being naive, you were being overly paranoid to imply that the target audience in japan is packed full of perverts into loli-bandage. Rather than that, it seems far more likely to me that the scene was there to make Nana more "moe". So, fanservice, but not sexual.

Maybe not in your eyes. Yeess, spoiler[A cute girl who just happens to be shackled to a wall where ballistics are shot at her to see how far she can take it before she's blown to bits] Ooh! That's just soo moe! Don't ya just want to hug her? I rest my case.

I didn't say it invalidated the dramatic components - I said I didn't think the show focused on them to the extent of other drama shows, but rather they were a secondary feature. Of course, this particular section of the discussion is far more subjective than any other part, so I'm not sure where we can really go with it - we simply disagree on the focus on drama in the series. I only added my perspective on the drama because you directly challenged me on it.

Well, we both recognize both romance and harem elements, but you say the harem elements are secondary to the romance, while I say the romance is secondary to the harem. The fact he was living with four other girls (I think?), some of whom he was involved with, and had numerous fanservicey scenes (bath time, etc...) makes it a harem - while it wasn't as prevalent compared to other series (as you noted) this is because Elfen Lied has other genre elements, and this one was weakened to make room for them. When compared to romance anime like Kare Kano, REC, Bokura ga Ita, Saikano, etc., they don't have any of this.

I don't know that drama and romance are solely a female domain - I think they're both wide enough genres (as aversed to harem and bloody horror) with enough variation that depending on the presentation they can be aimed at either. Take any dating game adaptation as an example - drama and romance, yet aimed solely at guys.

Here, then, lies the crux of our disagreement - to you Elfen Lied is a romantic tragedy, with fanservice in the form of sex and violence added to increase marketability. To me, Elfen Lied is a show that's all about fanservice, and the plot and romance are more a skeleton to give the fanservice some realistic basis.

I think that perhaps the impact the romance and drama had on each of us may have had an effect as to what we each see as the focus of the series - you seemed to really like it, so it's only natural for it to stand out more for you in the show, while I wasn't moved by it at all, which would naturally make me see it as a less significant factor. Another way of putting this is that those who liked the romace/drama will judge it as such with added fanservice, whereas those who didn't will perhaps judge it based on the graphical content, whioch would naturally lead then to see it as a harem/horror show.

Man, I dunno... I feel a little out of my depth on the last bit there. Let me know what you thin, anyway .

Interesting though this is, back to the thread topic - don't you think that some/much of the nudity in Elfen Lied is included as fanservice? You seemed to be saying that it was, even if it was just to increase appeal. But maybe I misunderstood you.

I personally felt really bad for Nana and hoped they would stop spoiler[pelting her with metal balls]

Big, exclusive debate

omar235 wrote:

I personally felt really bad for Nana and hoped they would stop spoiler[pelting her with metal balls]

Nana? The diclonius being pelted with the metal balls was, for a number of reasons, not nana. Perhaps the strongest reasons are the fact that she was referred to as number three, but mainly that she was shot in the head at close range with an unstoppable armour piercing round..

Let's not forget the results of her first encounter with Lucy. I definitely wanted to take care of her after that.

omar235 wrote:

I personally felt really bad for Nana and hoped they would stop spoiler[pelting her with metal balls]

Nana? The diclonius being pelted with the metal balls was, for a number of reasons, not nana. Perhaps the strongest reasons are the fact that she was referred to as number three, but mainly that she was shot in the head at close range with an unstoppable armour piercing round. .

Time and Space wrote:

omar235 wrote: I personally felt really bad for Nana and hoped they would stop spoiler[pelting her with metal balls] Nana? The diclonius being pelted with the metal balls was, for a number of reasons, not nana. Perhaps the strongest reasons are the fact that she was referred to as number three, but mainly that she was shot in the head at close range with an unstoppable armour piercing round. .

Eh you lost me, granted it has been a while since I saw the series...a long while...but do you mean number 3 was shot at close range with a armour piercing bullet? I thought it was Nana getting pelted with metal balls while being chained to a wall, then after the test was over the main science guy (forget his name) called her over and she is eventually sent out to spoiler[fight Lucy]. I don't recall many diclonius getting shot with armour peircing bullets...lucy was the only one I recall and she was shot in the first episode. After that I can't think of any others who where shot...well there was also the one that made...uh the main science guy (the father of the spoiler[diclonius child that had 26 vectors]) give birth to a diclonius, but she was shot with a pistol. Oh jeeze now I went and confused myself even more. That aside they all seemed to have been put through similar tests.

I agree with daedelus, after Nana's first encouter with Lucy that really made me feel bad for her and deffinatly made me feel the need to hug her.