Forum - View topicRe: Nudity in Elfen Lied
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omar235
 Posts: 1572 Location: Florida, Jacksonvile |
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Ah yes thanks for correcting me, I thought I spelt it wrong because I kept thinking of Buddha when I saw "guru". |
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Ramadahl
Posts: 325 Location: MK, UK |
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@Selenta - Kudos for your post back on the first page, I thought that was well written. I think your argument kinda fails on an Occams Razor level though, in that while it's technically possible the balance of evidence in the presentation ( prevalent camera angles and shots, certain scenes, lack of any development of the issues you mentioned), in addition to the target audience, seems to indicate that it isn't the case. Which is a shame, as I'd quite like to see an anime like the one you were talking about
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It wasn't intended to be arousing as such, but it was definitely fanservice (although I'll admit it also served to show how the diclonius were treated). If you don't think so then... I'll just say you're a good guy, and leave it at that.
Thanks frentymon for this. Nice to have a post that considers things from both sides 
I guess I fall on the other side of the proverbial fence to you, in that I really wasn't moved by the show at all. Not because of the themes involved in it (which can be powerful indeed), but more because of the way they were presented - Elfen Lied lacks subtlety. Any f00 could show a disturbing / horrific scene, but for me that wouldn't have any significant impact unless it has realistic consequences - it's the small actions in character dialogue/behavior that give weight to such scenes, and it's those which Elfen Lied lacked. Which is why, given that my view of the nudity coincides with Key: -
Still, that said, I don't really mind Elfen Lied so much any more - part of the disappointment I felt at the end was due to people hyping it up so much, and if I consider it as a fanservice series there are clearly worse ones out there, so I should probably boost the rating I've given it. |
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Zero89
Posts: 147 |
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And I'm telling you that there are shows that do try to integrate a vast variety of conventions from other genres and still remain serious. Do you also think that Full Metal Alchemist was not supposed to be serious? How about Full Metal Panic!? The list goes on, many anime series actually try to implement various genres into it. It's hard to find a shounen without some comedy in it. It's hard to find a drama without comedy, or some form of "fanservice"; and yet many of these shows still obviously take themselves seriously. Do you see why I don't think that, just because Elfen Lied tried to be so many things it wasn't made to be serious?
Nobody is claiming that all the nudity in Elfen Lied exist solely for a valid reason. If you had read my responses to you, you would have known that I am well aware of the shameless fanservice depicted in the show. What I am trying to say is that even though some of the nudity was used as a fanservice ploy, most of it was used to emphasize the dehumanized stance the others felt for the diclonious. And that your opinion of the show should not be belittled because of a few sparse moments. I mean how many of these scenes are their in the second half of the series?
I have to ask if you really watched Rumbling Hearts, or just read a synopsis? If Haruka had spoiler[realized how much time had passed, it would have had almost no bearing on the story whatsoever. Takayuki would still have went to rehab with her, visited her daily, etc. The catalyst for the show was not that she didn't realize how much time had passed, but that takayuki felt guilty for her comatose state. The conclusion of the story comes when he realizes that the only thing keeping him with Haruka is a deep sense of guilt, hence why in the ending scene Haruka tells him not to worry about that, that she didn't blame him for the incident, and that he should move on.]
The movie was made for the fans of the series. It is to be assumed that they have some semblance of the story. Probably why they didn't go into great detail about neo tokyo (I think that what they called it).
Is it too hard for you to believe that it has? I've already given you an example of a series that has the same exact story, acted out for a different target audience... But again, I am not disputing that some aspects of the show are clearly thrown in there for some shameless fanservice. What I am debating with you is how much. You seem to believe that the show is geared solely towards one target audience; I'm saying it's geared towards many target audiences. If the show wasn't meant to be serious at all, and was made solely for fanservice, then please explain the music, and all the dramtic scenes towards the end of the show. The music of a series is usually indicative of the emotions the series is trying to evoke, and I have never heard such beautiful, and emotional music from any show that wasn't meant to be serious. edit: fixed word choice Last edited by Zero89 on Sat May 19, 2007 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ramadahl
Posts: 325 Location: MK, UK |
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Tokyo Jupiter. Edit: -
It's geared towards a single demographic - seinen, older guys. Who are these other demographics you're thinking of? |
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Zero89
Posts: 147 |
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Thanks for correcting me, now if only I could remember where I got Neo tokyo from... 
The demographics I speak of are the emotional saps, the hopeless romantics, the fans of gore, Sci-fi , fanservice, and to a lesser degree,comedy (albeit poorly done), etc.... although, I guess saying it's geared towards many different viewers would have been a better choice of words... 
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ivorymoose
 Posts: 240 |
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I am replying this thread as an older woman, I shall not reveal my age except I am old enough to be a mother to some of you. I did not find the nudity disturbing, inappropriate, disgusting, arousing or shallow. It was however not necessary but I think it enhances the artwork and stretch test the limits of nudity in anime. It is as if the artist is trying to push this limit. The bloody scenes are not disturbing, it could be more violent if the overall color shceme had been darker and deeper in color. I agree with frentymon that Elfen Lied is not complex when it comes to themes and plots. I would have liked this series better but personally (for me), it has been over shadowed by Trinity Blood which I like because of the deep dark colors and complex themes. |
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d.yaro
Posts: 528 |
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Oddly enough my first introduction to Elfen Lied was through the "Moe Tournament" held here in this forum. I had probably glanced at the DVD ages ago and had completely forgotten about it. When I eventually did purchase the DVDs (post tournament) I figured I was getting a horror series. After having watched the entire thing I believe that selling point was more or less true. The product itself came up a bit short though. My reaction to the climactic plot turn with the mad director showing his true colours was a big "Oh bugger, that hoses this one down the drain".
From my perspective I found the nudity in the show to be a secondary element. I've absolutely forgotten about it being there other than in the first episode and in the OP sequence. Only after reading this thread did I get a vague recollection of characters being depicted naked anywhere else in the series. Putting myself on the spot I'd say that Elfen Lied is about as effective a horror story as the "Shibuya Kwaidan" live action movie. In the end the story collapses like a house of cards as the viewer is subjected to plot devices, images and dialogue which approach the level of a parody of the "Oh the horror!" line uttered in Apocalypse Now(sic). A discussion of the symbolism or themes embodied in the series would strike me as being a touch peculiar. I'm not saying the series is a farce or a shallow waste of time. It worked well enough for me to earn a "good" rating here though I think it was on the borderline of slipping below that. But I should reiterate that I started watching the series expecting it to be a horror story. At least those are the only elements of the story which I recall. |
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Ramadahl
Posts: 325 Location: MK, UK |
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Akira, Eva, and a whole host of others.
Hmm, I'm still not sure that's the case. Granted it contains elements of more than one genre, but I think you may be overstating it a little - it seems to be a combination of horror and harem, and that's it. There's definitely no sci-fi, at any rate. Also, saying it's geared towards many different viewers still seems incorrect, as viewers only looking for one element will find it somewhat diminished by the other. Rather, it's geared to a single type of viewer - one who enjoys both bloody horror and harem shows. Considering the target demographic for both types fall squarely in the seinen category it's natural to expect there to be some kind of crossover. Edit: - fixed quote. |
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chicogrande
 Posts: 190 Location: Huntsville, Alabama |
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Well, I don't know what "style" you may be refering to. It may be the style of the opening credits, which was good and, IMO, was wasted on the show. It may have been, in my case, the unintended laughter that erupted from me at the singular silliness of the bumbling secretary getting killed at the begining. I don't think you were suppossed to laugh. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Zero89
Posts: 147 |
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Although I see where you're coming form, you don't believe that it's story is also supposed to appeal people that like drama as well? I think it's dramatic aspect is much more prevalent then it's harem or horror elements.... and yet you leave that out?
Hmmmm, you have a point... but I don't think that horror and harem are the only elements emphasized in the series. The drama in the series is also one of it's focusing points, and that greatly expands it's audience to include females, or anyone that likes drama. Personally however, I don't think appealing to a certain sex in a certain age group is very effective , since I don't really see a particularly strong correlation with old men and harem shows, or bloody gore... Which is why I stated that it's target audience would be better based off of its viewer's taste rather than a person's age and sex ...
I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand what you mean by that. 
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Ramadahl
Posts: 325 Location: MK, UK |
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Um, well yes, if the internet's taught me anything it's taught me that there are some very, very odd people about. But I somehow don't think the scene was specially included to pander to the loli-bondage enthusiasts who're out there
I debated for a while when writing my previous post if I should include drama in my analysis, as it's clear that drama is present in the series. However, a problem swiftly arises when classifying series as 'drama' in that the majority of shows have drama in them to a greater or lesser extent, and calling them all drama series would make such a description less useful. As such, I tend to only classify series where drama is the main focus of the series, above and beyond anything else as drama. A couple of examples would be furuba and KGNE. On to Elfen Lied - I felt that the drama present, significant though it was in driving the plot, came about more as a result of the horror and harem elements that were already presented beforehand. In a sense, it's impossible to have any vaguely decent horror or harem series without any drama, so the fact that it would be present should be a given - it was the way in which it comes naturally from the other elements without being the focus of the series that makes me not really think of Elfen Lied as a drama. Of course, that's just my view on drama to explain to you why I didn't include it - if you want to refer to Elfen Lied as a drama that's perfectly understandable, and I'm fine with that. Still, that hasn't answered your point about drama fans liking it too, thus broadening the appeal. Superficially, that would seem to make sense - lots of people like drama, so having a strong dramatic component should attract more fans, right? But when I think about some of the drama fans I know, even though I think they'd like the drama I get the feeling they'd be less than happy with the other elements. They'd need to be horror and harem fans too in order for them to like Elfen Lied. So my argument against this point is really that rather than more genre elements attracting more people, the more genre elements you focus on the less people will like the show, because only people who like (or at least don't actively dislike) all the genre elements present will be fans. Of course, the trade-off for making a more niche show is that those who do like it will probably like it a lot.
It's based of the viewers tastes as well as their age and sex - the things are intrinsically intertwined. It just so happens that the vast majority of people whose tastes involve harem shows and bloody gore are part of a demographic of men in their late teens to twenties.
To put the same point another way, this is how I first explained my impression of Elfen Lied to a friend: - "Man, I swear the production went something like this... " - "Hey, this particular demographic really digs those harem shows!" - "Hey, wow, they also dig these really bloody, violent shows!" - "Dude, I have an awesome idea! Let's make a show that has both in it - that'll make us loads of cash off'f those guys!" Of course, saying it like that is kinda crude, which is why I couched it in terms like "crossover within the demographic" when I posted previously. Hmm... ever get that feeling that there's a massive hole in your argument but you don't know where it is? Because I'm sorta feeling I've really left myself open somewhere *checks flies*
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Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Ramadahl
Posts: 325 Location: MK, UK |
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Either that, or it makes you look a little paranoid  .
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BobafettBH
 Posts: 35 Location: USA |
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In my own opionion the nudity in Elfen Lied was used to display a more serious side to the show, As for Elfen Lied not being serious, i disagree completely. This show was as serious as I've seen in a lot of anime. Its not like there was nudity everywhere in the show. If there was nudity everywhere id agree, but there isnt.
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