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cheezisgoooood wrote:

Anyone who decides to kill hundreds of thousands of people, some of which aren't guilty of any crimes to society, so they can become a god and rule over every individual on earth with the power to judge people with their own selfish convictions and ambitions should be considered a villain, in my view. Don't tell me you've never heard of people who are considered villains for those exact reasons...

Where on earth did you get those ideas stuck into your head? What drug were you on when you came up with that? Lend me some of it, just 2 milligrams will do.

Please don't talk about a subject you have obviously never read or seen. You clearly do not understand anything about the series. He doesn't intentionally kill people not guilty of crimes, and he doesn't kill hundreds of thousands of people, as of the second episode... he's killed maybe a hundred, all of whom are convicted or are the sole suspects in serious crimes and are on the run. You could argue that killing the suspects isn't right because they haven't been proven guilty, but it is extremely likely those people on the run are guilty and it would simply take years or often decades to convict them and put them to death anyway. It does indeed go around the conventional law, and that is where L makes his case, but to claim what you just did shows you were not paying attention to anything.

selenta wrote:

You want Light to win so he can create his perfect world, and you want L to win because... well... I don't know why you'd want him to win over Light now that I think about it.

You want L to win because you think Light's ideas for a new world (enforced fearful obedience to his conception of morality with disobedience resulting in immediate and inescapable death) sounds like one of the most horrific things that could possibly happen to the world.

Don't get me wrong, I love the series so far precisely because of the moral dilemnas it brings up and the different layers to the characters (the high quality art doesn't hurt any either). But I think deep down, even Light himself realizes that what he's doing isn't right (I'm going to do this even if it costs me my soul!).

RDespair wrote:

I still think Light is much more of an anti-Christ figure than a Christ figure judging from the few chapters I've read in the manga. Minor spoilers for people who haven't watched the first anime episode/read the first volume of the manga - spoiler[ His "good intentions" seem to me to be a deception - what he's really interested in is becoming a god and molding the world in his own (this desire is explicitely stated in chapter/episode 1 of the manga/anime). His true desire is for glory and power; not for the salvation of humanity. Just look at his actions - he uses the power of the Death Note in such a way as to draw attention to himself (instead of trying to work behind the scenes like a true lover of humanity would most likely do) and when people try to stop him, he seeks to kill them.

It's quite possible that Light himself believes his own deception, but deception it remains. Christ sought to lift everyone up; to save the sinner and elevate them. Light seeks to destroy the sinner and by that destruction scare everyone else into coerced righteousness and worship. Yeah, I'm seeing some major differences here.]

The philosophies of the two are quite similar. Keep in mind that Jesus wasn't entirely selfless; he also wanted to be worshipped, and he said that the unworthy would be cast out of Heaven. Light is far from an anti-Christ figure; he's merely a twisted interpretation of Christ.

cheezisgoooood wrote:

Anyone who decides to kill hundreds of thousands of people, some of which aren't guilty of any crimes to society, so they can become a god and rule over every individual on earth with the power to judge people with their own selfish convictions and ambitions should be considered a villain, in my view. Don't tell me you've never heard of people who are considered villains for those exact reasons...

You, er, know nothing about Death Note.

He's not killing hundreds of thousands of people, for starters. We don't know a final figure, but methinks it's far below 100,000. Most importantly, he's not killing the innocent. The people he kills are violent criminals-murderers, rapists, etc. He doesn't go after minor criminals (like pickpockets). Light also kills those who try to stop him, such as FBI agents. He's not a random mass murderer.

His goal is to create a perfect world, regardless of the cost to himself. He becomes twisted along the way, but his original intention is decent. The anime made him more evil.

RDespair wrote:

selenta wrote:

You want Light to win so he can create his perfect world, and you want L to win because... well... I don't know why you'd want him to win over Light now that I think about it.

You want L to win because you think Light's ideas for a new world (enforced obedience to his conception of morality with disobedience resulting in immediate and inescapable death) sounds like one of the most horrific things that could possibly happen to the world.

Light's conception of morality is that if you murder or rape the innocent, you die. That doesn't sound too bad to me. Light's world sounds great.

i saw epsiode 2, I've never read the manga but i will say it again WOW this anime just gets better and better L and Light are awesome. i like how they are going to go at it against each other and try to find out who they are so they can kill one another. its a battle of justice and its awesome so far. They both have ideals of justice and they both are very smart. this anime is already in my top 5

coolerimmortal wrote:

You, er, know nothing about Death Note.

He's not killing hundreds of thousands of people, for starters. We don't know a final figure, but methinks it's far below 100,000. Most importantly, he's not killing the innocent. The people he kills are violent criminals-murderers, rapists, etc. He doesn't go after minor criminals (like pickpockets). Light also kills those who try to stop him, such as FBI agents. He's not a random mass murderer.

His goal is to create a perfect world, regardless of the cost to himself. He becomes twisted along the way, but his original intention is decent. The anime made him more evil.

I own all 7 currently released volumes of the manga in the US, I know plenty of Death Note.

The fact is he intends to keep this thing going until the day he dies, which is why spoiler[he didn't do the trade with Ryuk for the shinigami eyes so he could see the names of people walking around.]

It is his intention and goal to kill as many criminals as he can in the world so that everyone will get the message he means business. I would assume that would a whole lot more people than he has alread (at least as far as I've read. I don't like to fansub manga). And yes, he does kill the innocent spoiler[Think L and the FBI agent who was following him, not to mention there are plenty of people who he has thought of killing if it weren't for the conditions he was in ]

I'm not calling Light a random mass murder I'm calling him a villain, a super-villain with super-evil-powers that he uses to kill lots of people who he thinks should die in order for him to rule the world. The argument that he only kills criminals doesn't apply because spoiler[he HAS killed people who have committed no real harm to society]. He has complete disregard for human life because he wishes to rule the world and make it "perfect". The fact that he has to kill innocent people in order for his plan to work should make it perfectly clear that what he's doing isn't right.

When I first read about his plan in the first volume I already knew it was diabolical and misguided. I don't think it was decent at all.

coolerimmortal wrote:

Light's conception of morality is that if you murder or rape the innocent, you die. That doesn't sound too bad to me. Light's world sounds great.

In theory, his "perfect world" might sound great, but it's impossible to eradicate immoral people from the world. If Light had succeeded in creating his envisioned utopia by eliminating all the world's criminals, people might act in an ostensibly moral fashion, but many of them would be only doing so out of fear for their lives. Essentially, a sort of authoriatarian society would ensue.

spoiler[Moreover, Light doesn't just kill those guilty of crimes, but also anyone who challanges him or stands in his way of creating his utopia. Perhaps one can justify killing criminals, but Light killed many people who did nothing wrong for the sake of advancing his plan.]

IvoryBirch wrote:

coolerimmortal wrote:

Light's conception of morality is that if you murder or rape the innocent, you die. That doesn't sound too bad to me. Light's world sounds great.

In theory, his "perfect world" might sound great, but it's impossible to eradicate immoral people from the world. If Light had succeeded in creating his envisioned utopia by eliminating all the world's criminals, people might act in an ostensibly moral fashion, but many of them would be only doing so out of fear for their lives. Essentially, a sort of authoriatarian society would ensue.

spoiler[Moreover, Light doesn't just kill those guilty of crimes, but also anyone who challanges him or stands in his way of creating his utopia. Perhaps one can justify killing criminals, but Light killed many people who did nothing wrong for the sake of advancing his plan.]

True. Light's perfect world is impossible, mainly because it centers around his own judgement, which we know becomes corrupted due to the power of the Death Note.

Well...regarding who he kills...He kills those who stand in his way. He has to kill them to create his utopia...but arguing over the morality of executing the FBI agents and everyone else is relatively pointless.

Quote:

True. Light's perfect world is impossible, mainly because it centers around his own judgement, which we know becomes corrupted due to the power of the Death Note.

Well...regarding who he kills...He kills those who stand in his way. spoiler[He has to kill them to create his utopia...but arguing over the morality of executing the FBI agents and everyone else is relatively pointless.]

Sometimes you have to kill those who stand in your way.

i think George W. Bush would like Light's way/idea. ^^

We love to start war and killed(directly and indirectly) many innocent people.

Yeah, maybe Light hasn't killed 100,000 people yet, but the way he's going, if left to his own devices, he easily would.

And for those saying he doesn't kill innocents: spoiler[He killed the guy on TV he thought was L. Sure, it turned out the guy WAS a criminal, but he didn't KNOW that. He said "Anyone who stands in my way is evil" and killed the guy, even though as far as he knew the guy was a police officer trying to uphold the law.] So obviously he would kill innocent people if he felt he needed to. Wink

coolerimmortal wrote:

True. Light's perfect world is impossible, mainly because it centers around his own judgement, which we know becomes corrupted due to the power of the Death Note.

Well...regarding who he kills...He kills those who stand in his way. He has to kill them to create his utopia...but arguing over the morality of executing the FBI agents and everyone else is relatively pointless.

From what i see in the second episode, it seems he also disregards his own family.

Words i Quote from what he said:

Quote:

spoiler[IF i'm careless, i might be forced to kill my own family]

Also setting aside the manga since i only watch the anime, Light appear more like an evil figure than christ/savior like most people are portraying him to. I think the second episode makes it very clear since he keeps emphasizing himself as a God.

Do i believe in his actions?! Sure if i'm to only visualize this into anime and not something real. Killing Hundreds of people ins't something a normal person would do.

Hitler + Osama bin laden = Light

Quote:

And for those saying he doesn't kill innocents: spoilerspoiler[[He killed the guy on TV he thought was L. Sure, it turned out the guy WAS a criminal, but he didn't KNOW that. He said "Anyone who stands in my way is evil" and killed the guy, even though as far as he knew the guy was a police officer trying to uphold the law.] ]So obviously he would kill innocent people if he felt he needed to

you can also blame L for that guy's death. So L would kill criminal if needed too.

killed a criminal in order get the information that he wants, so he can save other criminals.

free2slap wrote:

From what i see in the second episode, it seems he also disregards his own family.
Words i Quote from what he said:

Quote:

spoiler[IF i'm careless, i might be forced to kill my own family]

Also setting aside the manga since i only watch the anime, Light appear more like an evil figure than christ/savior like most people are portraying him to. I think the second episode makes it very clear since he keeps emphasizing himself as a God.
...
Hitler + Osama bin laden = Light

To be honest, that line confused me at first too, but it's really very simple. Light is not only willing to sacrifice himself and his soul to do what he believes needs to be done, he is willing to sacrifice some of the biggest reasons he's doing it. There's two ways of looking at it:

One, if you have to sacrifice everything you hold dear to accomplish a goal, it's not worth doing, no matter the reward.

Two, if the reward outweighs the price, it's worth doing.

Light is obviously in the second group, and he is willing to do anything it takes to accomplish his goal. Think of it this way, if you wanted to save the world from itself by ending crime, and the police were trying to assassinate you, what would you do? Let them kill you? I don't think so. Light doesn't want to kill the police officers, but not only are they trying to kill him, they're trying to prevent him from creating a better world.

I thought this was a very literal adaptation at first, and it's true that most of the lines are there, but they seem to have left out many very important lines from Light from the show (imo). I just went back and reread the first two chapters, and am absolutely convinced that Light is not doing this for his own power. It seems like everyone who thinks Light is insane is not only drawing their conclusions solely from the anim (which really isn't inherently a bad thing), but they ignore some of the very important rationalization segments, and most of the material that was cut was cut from these segments. It's very clear they wish to paint a different portait of Light from the manga, and I don't like it one bit as it cheapens the story immensely when people think Light is crazy. If you think Light is like Osama, you need to think harder.

If nothing else, take advice from someone who thinks very similarly to Light from the manga, he's not insane, he's just very very determined to do what he thinks is right. Everything Light does is to give him as much time as possible with the Death Note.

Note, I never said that I thought that Light is crazy - I think he's evil, not crazy.

I've read more of the manga than I've seen of the anime and I'm drawing my opinions of his character from what I've read, not what I've seen (although the two were very similar in episode 1, not sure about episode 2 since I haven't watched it yet). In some ways, manga Light is even worse than anime Light. For example, the second person he kills with the Death Note was just being very rude & unsavory in the manga whereas that person was physically sexually assaulting someone in the anime (making the anime Light seem more justified).

There's definitely some strong Christ symbolism in the art, however I think it's used to draw the reader's attention to how radically different Light and Christ are despite a few superficial similarities rather than trying to set Light up as a Christ figure. The impression I get of Light is that of a bored and mildly depressed teenager whose actions are based on a desire to show off how intelligent he is more than anything else.

RDespair wrote:

The impression I get of Light is that of a bored and mildly depressed teenager whose actions are based on a desire to show off how intelligent he is more than anything else.

I'm curious, who do you think he's trying to show off to, himself? I wouldn't think he needs to show that, he's already done that by being the best in every way he could wish to measure himself.

Exaar wrote:

And for those saying he doesn't kill innocents: spoiler[He killed the guy on TV he thought was L. Sure, it turned out the guy WAS a criminal, but he didn't KNOW that. He said "Anyone who stands in my way is evil" and killed the guy, even though as far as he knew the guy was a police officer trying to uphold the law.] So obviously he would kill innocent people if he felt he needed to. Wink

If they're opposing the creation of a "perfect world" wouldn't that make them guilty in his eyes?

free2slap wrote:

From what i see in the second episode, it seems he also disregards his own family.
Words i Quote from what he said:

Quote:

spoiler[IF i'm careless, i might be forced to kill my own family]

spoiler[Yes, forced to kill them. He doesn't want to kill his family any more than he wants to kill police officers or FBI agents - he is simply of the opinion that he is working towards a greater good, and in order to reach this goal it may be necessary to kill them.]
In essence though, the whole moral issue is just the old "Do the ends justify the means?" question, which I'm sure everyone here is familiar with.

Personally, I'm with selenta on this one.

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