Forum - View topicShakugan no Shana (TV) (all seasons + movie).
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
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Ok, it's clear that we are never going to agree on Yuji if you don't even find his actions those of a sane person. I could see finding them actions that wouldn't fit in with the way Yuji behaved before, but based on everything we ultimately learned this season, I at the very least say his actions make sense.
I doubt either of us is going to convince the other, though. |
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5836 Location: Virginia, United States |
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You are right to a degree, if you eliminated season one and two, you wouldn't have had Yuji's and Shana's relationship history causing problems with the current story line. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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I think that if you ignore the first two seasons and consider everything we've learned in the third season, Yuji's actions make sense, both from the perspective of someone who wants to help the world, AND from the perspective of someone who loves Shana.
If asked "do his actions make sense as actions that the Yuji of the first two seasons would have done", I'd say, "kind of." They aren't things I would have guessed Yuji would ever do, but as they do make sense to me from an overall logical perspective, they are things I don't think are completely impossible for Yuji to do. I would have preferred better development though, a clearer view of Yuji's thought processes that lead to him making those decisions, and perhaps more signs earlier on that he was the type of person who could do so. Rather than complete character derailment for Yuji, I instead feel like we skipped a small chunk of character development. Of course, a huge difference between us is that we view Yuji's actions in the 3rd season in a substantially different light. You have a far, far more negative view of them than I do. For example, spoiler[Yuji's decision to head to Xanadu and leave his family behind. I view this as Yuji taking responsibility for the fact that he played a huge part in creating the new world, and recognizing that if he truly intends to create co-existence between Denizens and humans, he can't just stop half way. You view it as abandoning his family as disposable, or such is the impression I got from your posts.] Also, spoiler[there is Yuji's decision to go to Xanadu and struggle alone (in other words, without Shana), his stubborn insistence on it. I view this as Yuji recognizes that he did some horrible things to accomplish his goals, and feels he has to punish himself for it. Well, this is more than just my view, this is specifically stated as the reason he intends to go alone. I view it as him being a bit of a stubborn fool for insisting on this even when Shana says she wants to be with him now, but I don't think the fact that he feels guilt over what he did is a bad thing. You view Yuji's decision to (initially) be without Shana as just another horrible thing about him, that he's leaving her behind and thus doesn't really love her. (Assuming I understood your posts right)] I could go on further, describing other actions of Yuji and how we disagree, but I don't think there's much need. We clearly view Yuji's actions in the 3rd season in substantially different fashions, and I have a feeling neither of us will change the other's opinion. But I suppose I could be wrong about that. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5836 Location: Virginia, United States |
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My biggest problems with Yuji's character was not those things, though they are contributors.
Rather, the fact that instead of working with his love, friends, and allies, he choose to work with enemy. spoiler[But the biggest fault is that he choose to start a war, knowing that Shana and his friends would probably be on the other side, and that Shana and his friends might die because of his actions. He tried to prevent that eventuality, and protect them as best as he could, but the bottom line is that he was willing to sacrifice them for the larger overarching goal.] spoiler[This season was not about saving Shana, but changing the system, and everyone is expendable, including Shana.] We may not agree on this, as you have said, but it is sure nice to be able to debate about it. Thanks. |
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Ferian
 Posts: 162 |
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Hmm... You see, the issue with that point of view is that Shana spoiler[would die, sooner or later. The God of Creation had come to Yuuji and asked him if he wants to be its vessel. If Yuuji had refused, the Snake would have his Trinity create a different suitable vessel, like their attempt in the final arc of the second season. In other words, had Yuuji refused, the war would still have broken out, but without him being able to affect the situation whatsoever. And if you recall, the only reason Shana hadn't used Tenpa Jousai on the Snake was that she did not want to kill Yuuji as well.
Furthermore, the conflict would never end with Flame Hazes' absolute win, as new Denizens are always created in Guze (I suspect there to be a spawn limit, as many seem to embody a concept of some sort and there is a limit to conceptualization). Yuuji could not bring victory to the Flame Haze side by his own power and knowledge (wiping out all Tomogara? new ones will appear, Shana dies sooner or later in the neverending conflict; destroy Guze? Shana dies as Alastor is destroyed with it; prevent denizens from entering this world? Shana dies as Alastor loses access to the world as well; prevent Tomogara from devouring humans in this world? Can't be done without risking the integrity of the world itself, Shana likely goes against him and kills him, then kills herself, or better yet, performs a Tenpa Jousai double suicide; if you have an idea, share it). Instead, he was offered power and knowledge to END the conflict once and for all, there and then, if by allowing the other side "win". I would not call his choice illogical. He wasn't right, yes, but just remember the reaction when everyone recognized him as the Snake - they had simply attacked him instead of trying to talk. So, to sum up the above, no, Yuuji did not choose to start a war - it was already going on anyway, and would escalate either way. He chose to end it. As for the second point, this season was not about saving Shana, indeed. It was about saving everyone, including Shana. Also, about a previous point I had just randomly glanced over: Yuuji's reason for "abandoning" his family and going to the new world was quite simple - he was not part of it anymore. As far as his family is concerned, Yuuji has never even existed, and there is no way to return everything to how it has been before.] Well, that's just what my point of view comes down to. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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Ferian's post is pretty close to my thoughts as to why I don't have too harsh a view of what Yuji did.
With that said, what are my overall thoughts on the season? Here's my thoughts, copied from a post I made on another forum and slightly modified. I'm not totally certain what I'd rank the series as yet, so for now let's talk about what I liked and disliked. Starting with what I disliked. Too many characters, and too many titles At first I thought the anime was doing an ok job balancing so many new characters along with a bunch of returning characters, but in the end things got a bit out of hand. This was especially bad with some of the Flame Haze characters, where every character was essentially two different characters, both with long titles, and in some cases more than one title. It was a bit much to keep track of at times, and I also I felt that overall the story was spread a bit too thin in some cases. Sure, there were new characters I enjoyed like Rebecca, but at the same time there were a whole bunch of characters that were just there, ones who felt like they should be important, but were given so little focus that it was hard to really care about them. The disconnect with the previous seasons This is particularly bad regarding Yuji's character and actions, and there is a related issue with Bal Masque's behavior. Despite my debate with TarTarkas about the severity of Yuji's change, I do feel he has something of a point. In the 3rd season characters seem to suddenly change, and plot points or retconned, ignored, or given tenuous explanations. This is also a problem the 2nd season had as well, though not as extreme. Remember how different Hecate was in Season 1 compared to the later seasons? Remember how at the end of Season 1, Bal Masque was acting like the whole "fount of existence" thing was itself their primary goal, and how in the start of season 2 Bel Peol is suddenly saying that it was all done to serve some larger purpose? Unfortunately for the 3rd season, the disconnect involves Yuji, a much more important character than Hecate. Though at the end I could at least understand why Yuji did what he did, it was a very rough bit of character development, and it wasn't something I would have immediately guessed Yuji would do based on the first and second seasons. Then you got the issue of Bal Masque, which just compounds the Yuji issue. If Bal Masque had always given the impression that they had a clear goal they were working towards, and that all they were doing was for the purpose of achieving that goal, it might have been easier to accept Yuji joining with them after he realized their goal wasn't so bad after all. But that's not the way they were portrayed. Even with the season 2 retcon about the end of season 1, Bal Masque still seemed unfocused and somewhat scatterbrained in their actions, doing evil just because, rather than a focused "ends justify the means" anti-hero/villain group like they were apparently supposed to be. Which as I said above, made it hard to accept Yuji joining them, especially at first. I guess in a way, the above issues aren't specifically with the 3rd season. They are in fact issues with the first two seasons failing to lay the groundwork for season 3. Regardless of where the fault lies, these issues affected my enjoyment of season 3. Though I ultimately came to accept what Yuji did, and I don't think it destroys his character, it was a very rough bit of development. Plot threads with conclusions but no (or incomplete) beginnings This is something that hurt the final episodes of the series I think. We got the climaxes of several different plot threads in addition to the main story... problem is, some of those plot threads hadn't really been developed much. Or at all. This meant the ending was a bit unfocused at times, in my opinion. For example, let's consider Sale and Chiara, and their relationship with Mammon and the professor. Now, I know that Sale is an artificial Flame Haze, and the professor is apparently his creator, but I don't even know what "artificial Flame Haze" really means. There were only a handful of lines that even revealed this relationship (some posters missed it entirely), and in the end, spoiler[Sale killing the professor didn't really have the emotional investment you'd expect from a man killing his creator/father.] And then Mammon... I got the impression that there was some definite relationship between him and Sale/Chiara, but i couldn't tell you what exactly. Overall, Sale and Chiara were better developed than some of the new characters, at least as far as their relationship to each other was concerned, but it felt like a huge chunk of their story was missing. Which apparently was the case. More on that later. Then we get the resolution of the story of the corpse collector, Lamies. Apparently, spoiler[he was trying to restore a portrait, though some translations, including the official nico nico one, don't make that clear. But why did he (or I should say she) care about that portrait so much?] Umn... Then we get Pheles and Johann. Well, actually, their story specifically was one where we got the beginning, but when spoiler[Shahar announces the existence of the "heir of two worlds" to everyone, she brings up all these events involving some ancient Flame Haze and Crimson Denizen that were apparently in love with each other and trying to do something similar, except they were stopped by the previous Flame Haze of Alastor, and this all related to events that we saw very brief hints of in earlier flashbacks, assuming this all involves the conflict that Shiro and Wilhelmina were involved with,] and I am completely lost. Apparently, all these events were explained more fully in the Light Novels. Volume 10 is focused on Alastor's previous Flame Haze, while the majority of volume 15 is focused on Sale and Chiara. Lamies story is told at some point as well, though I'm not sure where. Ok, but unfortunately, I don't have the Light Novels. Even if I had perfect English translations of the entire series, the anime series should be able to stand on its own, without requiring people to run to the novels to figure things out. It's easy to blame J.C. Staff and the anime production committee for "butchering" the novels, and indeed that is what some have done, but I don't know all the details that went on behind the scenes of the anime production, how much guidance they were given, and how much is really their fault. But in the end it doesn't really matter whose fault it is, there are issues with the anime that prevent me from enjoying it as much as I would like to. With that out of the way, let's move onto something more positive. Before I discuss what I liked, let's discuss what I didn't care for one way or the other. Animation and art, ok. Generally speaking, if I am invested in a story, I don't really notice things like the animation quality or the art style, unless they are really really good, or really really bad. I don't recall Shana's animation being particularly memorable, so I guess it was at least ok. As for art style, I recall finding the CG animation used for the Snake of the Festival a bit odd looking in a few scenes, and I was disappointed that so many of the Crimson Denizens in the the big crowd scenes were so generic. On the plus side, I liked Yuji's new design, I thought the design of the abyss was pretty cool, and I liked the scenes ofspoiler[ Xanadu's creation.] Overall, the visuals did not wow me, but they did not disappoint me either. Now, onto the things I liked! Voice Acting It's hard to judge voice acting in a language I do not understand, but as much as I could tell, the acting was pretty good. I really enjoyed some of the speeches of various characters, mainly Snake of the Festival/Yuji. I like the voice of that one Crimson Denizen, Decariba or whatever his name was, it was really cool. Overall, while the voice acting didn't utterly stun me, I definitely enjoyed it a lot. Music Ah, now things are looking up. I really liked the soundtracks of the previous two seasons, and I really liked the soundtrack of this one as well. My favorite song is definitely the one that seems to be the theme of the Snake of the Festival, but there were many nice tracks. I also thought both opening and ending songs were good as well, and liked the way they often would integrate the ending song with the last moments of the episode. The storyline parts I liked: Snake of the Festival I complained a lot about various aspects of the plot at the start of this post, but my earlier defense of the series in this thread shows that in fact I enjoyed many aspects of the story as well. Let's get to them. I loved the Snake of the Festival and the core twist behind him. You see, I am a video game player as well as an anime watcher, and so I am quite familiar with the ancient god/demon that was sealed away long ago and is revived by the villains to destroy/rule the world. "Sealed evil in a can" this trope is called on tvtropes. I've always wanted someone to do a twist on it, spoiler[where the ancient sealed evil is actually a misunderstood good guy. And while I don't think Shana is the first to do that twist, it is the first time I have seen it, and I think it did it very well.] I mean, just look at the Snake of the Festival. Ancient god sealed by the (apparent) good guys. Ominous appearance, being a snake with black flame. Somewhat sinister and incredibly awesome theme music. Revived by the (apparent) villains. Likes to give grandiose speeches about changing the world, and is voiced by Aizen's Japanese voice actor. (EDIT) Also occasionally prone to brief fits of maniacal laughter, can't believe I forgot about that. Everything superficial about him screams evil, and at the same time screams "he's so cool I want to root for him anyways." spoiler[And in the end, it turns out he's not evil. He's not without his flaws, but he's definitely not evil. And ultimately he wins, and helps out everybody. The "bad guy" wins and it is a good thing. I like that.] Epic scale and intensity While the many characters and plot threads did sometimes prove too much for the series to handle, at the very least the season did manage a very epic feel. Gods and monsters and the possible end of the world and the creation of a new world. Massacres and wars and the alteration of reality. It definitely had nice scope to it, and it provided a true climax. Some series feel like they are building towards something massive, then end in an anti-climax where nothing much happens. Not Shana season 3. It felt like it was building towards something major, and it did. This also relates to another good quality of the series: intensity. From the moment we see Yuji take his throne as the new leader of Bal Masque, the series hits you and makes you wonder just what the heck is going on and what is going to happen. And it never lets up, aside from some slight dragging in some fights near the end. Compared to the previous seasons of Shana, which had clearly defined story arcs, the 3rd season was one massive story where you couldn't stop at any point without being driven mad wondering how it was going to all end. spoiler[Happy ending] spoiler[Ok, I like sad endings sometimes, but I also like happy endings, and I like happy endings to stories that seem like they shouldn't possibly be able to have one, but do, and still make sense. From the moment we learned what Yuji was, Shana was basically saying "there's no way this can have a good ending." Even after we learned that Yuji wasn't going to fade away any time soon thanks to the Midnight Lost Child, the more we learned about the world, the harder it became to imagine any truly conclusive happy ending. Yah, maybe they can defeat Bal Masque and kill them all. That won't stop future Denizens from going after the treasure if they learn of it. That won't change the fact that Denizens still consume people's existence, or the fact that the whole world is really screwed up, and Shana and Yuji are going to spend eternity fighting until they eventually die, and one day in the future a Denizen might just manage to create a distortion so great that it wipes out reality. And then we get season 3, which tells us "by the way, Yuji's evil now", and it becomes apparent the series is doomed to a tragic ending. Except, ultimately, it ends in a better manner than most could have imagined back in season 1, and it does so well.] In conclusion One of my favorite authors is Brandon Sanderson, and one of the things he likes to do is reversals and subversions. Take a common fantasy trope or theme, even (or especially) one he's used himself, and put a new spin on it, or turn it on its head. I felt like that was what the final season of Shana tried to do, and it mostly succeeded. spoiler[I talked about this a bit earlier with the Snake of the Festival and why I loved him, but it goes somewhat beyond just him. I'm reminded of the scene in episode 23 shortly after the creation of Xanadu, when the Snake of the Festival orders Bal Masque to go to Xanadu and complements them for their hard work and sacrifices, and there's that really awesome and triumphant music that just makes the scene so awesome, and then a part of your brain realizes "wait, weren't these guys the villains?" but you realize it's hard to really think that anymore, even considering the spotty characterization Bal Masque got in the anime.] So I love Shana 3 for what it did and what it tried to do, taking all our preconceptions about Bal Masque and any plan they might have, and turning things around, making us wonder just who we should be rooting for. Even if it was a bit rough in it's execution, I still like it. Right now, I'd probably rate the series Very Good, but I'll wait a bit longer and reflect more before deciding for certain. |
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SomaRukido
 Posts: 10 Location: USA |
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First of all, let me say that Shana III far surpassed my expectations, and i really liked it. The only thing that bothered me were some of the plot holes, but i could still overlook that. In my opinion, it was "excellent."
That being said, spoiler[after yuji's exsistence is restored by Lami's unrestricted spell, he becomes a normal human again, right? Doesn't that mean he'll lose all his powers, and that he'll live a mortal life? He can't be with shana forever that way! Also, what happens to the Reiji Maigo! So many unanswered questions! And does his family remember him in Xanadu! They need to make an OVA showing what goes on over there  ]
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18200 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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About your first concern, I seem to recall that spoiler[the Reiji Maigo/Midnight Lost Child was taken out by Pheles.] (Or am I recalling incorrectly?) About your second concern, spoiler[Misaki City doesn't exist in the other world so no duplicate of Yuji's family, school, or schoolmates carries over. And they clearly don't remember him in the original world.] |
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SomaRukido
Posts: 10 Location: USA |
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No, spoiler[during the battle in Misaki City, Johann was going to take the Reiji Meigo, but he let Yuji keep it. After that the SoF/Yuji use it to make the gate to Xanadu. It isn't mentioned after that.] And you're right, I forgot it doesn't exist over there...still wanna know what happens to Yuji and Shana though lol |
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Ferian
Posts: 162 |
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spoiler[1) No, Yuuji does not become a "normal human" but a unique existence probably closest in nature to what Johann and Pheles have created. He retains all his powers and tremendous Power of Existence. 2) I would totally watch that OVA.] |
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SomaRukido
Posts: 10 Location: USA |
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I hope they do make an OVA lol, it really needs to be done |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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Regarding the final fate of the Midnight Lost Child... (light novel spoilers)spoiler[ it broke. When the Snake of the Festival used his technique to extract unlimited Power of Existence from it, it put enough strain on the treasure that the gears came undone. Though it would have only taken about a couple of lines of dialogue to include this in the anime, they still left it out for some reason, which seems odd considering how important the treasure was throughout the series.]
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SomaRukido
Posts: 10 Location: USA |
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I see...that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. Where can I read the novel? I searched for it on google but nothing significant came up. Also, just so Im clear, spoiler[Margery stayed in the real world right?] |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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The first two novels were officially released by Viz, and you can probably still order them online a few places. I believe Amazon had them the last time I checked, though there were only a few copies of each volume left. If you do buy them, make sure you're getting the Light Novels, and not the manga adaption (which was also released by Viz). Unfortunately, Viz apparently decided that the series didn't sell well enough to release future volumes. There are fan translations for some of them online, including a translation of the majority of the final novel, but I can't link to them because it would violate ANN forum policy. Also, some of those translations are a bit rough and hard to follow at times, but it's still better than nothing. As I said, I can't link you to them, so I can only suggest that you try some more google searches. As for your spoiler question: spoiler[yes, she stayed on earth.] |
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SomaRukido
Posts: 10 Location: USA |
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