Forum - View topicHoney and Clover II
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Greennunu
Posts: 145 |
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spoiler[I think that's a little unfair to say, "other than declaring his love for her", isn't that whay she was avoiding him? I mean it takes alot more courage to declare your love for someone(specially your first time), knowing full well you're gonna get turned down. HAC2 started out and then switched to to 2 other arcs before going back to Take/Hagu/Morita(more or less) arc, and to say only Ayu learned that leaving someone you care about alone only make them very lonely is a unfair statement, I don't think Takemoto ever thought of leaving her alone because he thinks it's better that way. He was willing to fight for her when Morita came back. Through the entire first season Hagu came to Shuu because they've known each other since they were little, it'd be odd if she came to Takemoto after the date with Morita to talk about her problems. When the decision came up between his job and her I definitely think he made the right choice, how can he take care of her if he can't even take care of himself, although it's a real romatic view of life to give up everything for the girl you love, it's not exactly that simple.] I agree that Takemoto and Morita has alot of maturing to do, but I don't think it means neither of them can't have a romantic relationship. Wether or not someone ends up with Hagu, won't change the fact it's a good anime... I'm just wishing the best for Takemoto. |
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Mylene
 Posts: 2792 Location: Indiana |
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I don't think you understand what I'm saying nor upon what I've based what I said. First off, spoiler[we clearly see Takemoto look in at a struggling Hagu (when she was working on art and just emotionally) and think something along the lines of 'she's in a place that I can't be, and I can't help her.' This doesn't mean Takemoto didn't have courage when he confessed to her. I never said that. However, he never has seemed to realize that they do in fact live on the same plane of existence. He continues to see her as someone far away. I'm not saying this is wrong or makes him a bad person, after all he's hardly the only one that feels that way, however, if you truly do not think you can connect with the person you like, then there really isn't much there to go on. And look at the number of times he didn't go to her for that very reason. At the end, we see him fight with Morita, etc, but we rarely actually see him trying to interact with Hagu. Rather, he watches her while she's asleep, or observes changes in her (ie the bitemarks on hers and Shuuji's hands), but never tries to risk interacting with her as much after he declares his love. That leads to a very lonely person. Ayu learned this. And so even while she felt like everything she was doing was unimportant, she still brought Hagu great joy by not just leaving her alone on top of the pedestal that she has been placed. You are right in one regard. It wasn't just Ayu that knew that. Morita also knew that he shouldn't avoid Hagu just because she was so talented. But then again, he was seen as having the same amount of talent pretty much, so he may not have ever really noticed anyway. Another thing to note is that Shuuji knew how to deal with the most talented of people. Rika and her husband, Morita, Hagu. All of them were vastly more talented than him, but he never treated them differently, which seems to be a point that H&C is trying to make. Just because someone seems untouchable, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to connect with them.]
spoiler[Of course she wouldn't go up to a complete stranger to talk about something like this. That was never what I was saying. My point is simply that Takemoto never tried to truly bridge the gap between them, and therefore was not a good candidate in the relationship department. Instead, he suddenly sprung his love on the girl, and when she didn't return it, he went straight back to observing her, rather than trying to get to know her and trying to understand that as talented as she is, she is in fact a human being and needs people to talk to and connect with. I'm hardly the romantic that thinks he should have given up work to take care of her without any financial support. That whole decision had nothing to do with anything I wrote. You can't live on love. I'm a married adult, I know this. He made the right choice; not just because he wouldn't have been able to help her without being able to provide some sort of financial support, but rather because she doesn't love him and doesn't see him as someone who should be taking care of her. I think she would have rejected the offer even if it had been presented. I never even mentioned this in my post because it has nothing to do with what I said regarding Takemoto and Hagu. To sum it up: Takemoto, aside from declaring he loved her, never really saw her as an equal but rather as this greater being that he could never understand or help, and thus he never did.] Or at least as of episode 11.
I don't recall saying neither of them were ready for a romantic relationship. I just don't think they're what Hagu needs. They'd be fine with someone else. I mean, I even had a couple of moments of thinking that Yamada and Takemoto would make a nice couple. But spoiler[Hagu with either of them doesn't work because neither of them have the ability to give her what she needs--Morita cannot give her stability, and Takemoto seems to be incapable of giving her the closeness she needs at this time. Both of these things, however, can be and are provided by Shuuji. ] Which is why I was pleased (even if I was suprised) by the turn of events in episode 11. It's rare that what I feel is the best decision actually ends up being what happens. Assuming things remain static. Of course, if that was the final decision, just what is left for episode 12? I don't think we truly know anything just yet. But I hope we do. ^_- (And actually, I'm wishing Takemoto the best too. He's a good kid that reminds me a bit of myself in his way of thinking. Hopefully he, unlike me, can realize he is worthy of other people's company. Should spoiler[he and Hagu find a way to be together, I'll be very happy for him and not in the least bit disappointed with the turn of events--as long as it includes a realization by him that he is worthy of her company and attentions]) |
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vroenis
 Posts: 61 Location: Australia |
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I think we all are, but I actually never thought the series would be about Takemoto finding love, rather than him experiencing a rites of passage in many ways, one of them being learning about some of the subtler nuances and many forms of love. To be honest, given the way his story was portrayed in the first season, spoiler[especially the fantastic closing chapter with him riding his bycicle across Japan, I would have been disappointed if the culmination of his journey ended with a romantic pairing. What is happening to Takemoto is something that I've experienced my self, and there's something in the way of learning that infatuation doesn't always mean true, dedicated love. There have been people I've known in my youth that at the time I was totally convinced that I wanted to spend a lifetime with them, but of-course this is not how things turned out, and for the best too. Of-course that doesn't mean the possibility was outright impossible, but what I learned from those experiences was invaluable in regards to my outlook on love and life, and this is how I see Takemoto's story-arc, and indeed everyone involved in that circle (Hagu et al).] Life rarely turns out exactly the way we often hope it will, however that also rarely means it turns out worse per se, that of-course including the possibility of it not necessarily turning out better. I'm of the belief that Hachikuro is most likely not really trying to assert either way, simply that the way the lives of the characters turn out versus their expecatations is different, and that is how they continue to grow and develop. |
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Greennunu
Posts: 145 |
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[quote="MyleneI don't think you understand what I'm saying nor upon what I've based what I said. First off, spoiler[we clearly see Takemoto look in at a struggling Hagu (when she was working on art and just emotionally) and think something along the lines of 'she's in a place that I can't be, and I can't help her.' This doesn't mean Takemoto didn't have courage when he confessed to her. I never said that. However, he never has seemed to realize that they do in fact live on the same plane of existence. He continues to see her as someone far away. I'm not saying this is wrong or makes him a bad person, after all he's hardly the only one that feels that way, however, if you truly do not think you can connect with the person you like, then there really isn't much there to go on. And look at the number of times he didn't go to her for that very reason. At the end, we see him fight with Morita, etc, but we rarely actually see him trying to interact with Hagu. Rather, he watches her while she's asleep, or observes changes in her (ie the bitemarks on hers and Shuuji's hands), but never tries to risk interacting with her as much after he declares his love. That leads to a very lonely person. Ayu learned this. And so even while she felt like everything she was doing was unimportant, she still brought Hagu great joy by not just leaving her alone on top of the pedestal that she has been placed.]
I'm not trying to argue with you, but I really don't see where you're getting the information on him seeing Hagu as you described "on a different plane of existence, I agree that he thought so in the first season, but in the 2nd season, it looked alto like he's already over that. At the beginning, he said she was avoiding him after he confessed, and the few times the show showed us they were interacting, I don't see him treating her as being far away at all, it seems pretty natural. He was there trying to support her when she was ill, I don't remember any scene where he was doubting himself as wether or not he can get close to her, even after being rejected, he still keeps at it, he might not understand her talently but he isn't giving up on her. I see the show shows us alot about what Takemoto thinks and what his thought processes are, but that hardly means he takes no action.
Thats not what I meant at all, I mean just because Ayu had a moment where she believe it's better off leaving her alone does not mean Takemoto thought about the same thing, wether morifta thought so too or not we will never know since we never see his thought process. spoiler[Of course she wouldn't go up to a complete stranger to talk about something like this. That was never what I was saying. My point is simply that Takemoto never tried to truly bridge the gap between them, and therefore was not a good candidate in the relationship department. Instead, he suddenly sprung his love on the girl, and when she didn't return it, he went straight back to observing her, rather than trying to get to know her and trying to understand that as talented as she is, she is in fact a human being and needs people to talk to and connect with. I'm hardly the romantic that thinks he should have given up work to take care of her without any financial support. That whole decision had nothing to do with anything I wrote. You can't live on love. I'm a married adult, I know this. He made the right choice; not just because he wouldn't have been able to help her without being able to provide some sort of financial support, but rather because she doesn't love him and doesn't see him as someone who should be taking care of her. I think she would have rejected the offer even if it had been presented. I never even mentioned this in my post because it has nothing to do with what I said regarding Takemoto and Hagu. To sum it up: Takemoto, aside from declaring he loved her, never really saw her as an equal but rather as this greater being that he could never understand or help, and thus he never did.] to acknowledge someone's talent is not to put them on the pedestal, if he were to say her talent was greater than his it doesn't mean he put them as a greater and a lesser. He simply wanted to protect the girl he loves and is looking for the best way to do so. As I said from above I still have no idea where you still think Takemoto is distancing himself from her after the festival or thinking "she is so talented I could never be with/help her", spoiler[in EP 10 where he was rushing to her after morita came back should have hinted that he doesn't see a gap anymore. To me that shows that he was willing to tell her he will protect her, and take responsiblity for her.] [quote] I don't recall saying neither of them were ready for a romantic relationship. I just don't think they're what Hagu needs. They'd be fine with someone else. I mean, I even had a couple of moments of thinking that Yamada and Takemoto would make a nice couple. But spoiler[Hagu with either of them doesn't work because neither of them have the ability to give her what she needs--Morita cannot give her stability, and Takemoto seems to be incapable of giving her the closeness she needs at this time. Both of these things, however, can be and are provided by Shuuji. ] Which is why I was pleased (even if I was suprised) by the turn of events in episode 11. It's rare that what I feel is the best decision actually ends up being what happens. Assuming things remain static.[/quote my bad I misread your post.
Of course, this isn't my arguement on how Take should get Hagu, I just don't see where you get this info from "Takemoto still believes he can't do anything for Hagu" in HAC2. *Edited with better spelling and grammar plus a bit of added info since I was in a bit of a hurry earlier. |
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Mylene
Posts: 2792 Location: Indiana |
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Err, having a little trouble reading what you wrote, the quote blocks are a little messed up. ^^; But I think I've got it figured out.
Anyway, I'm not basing my feelings on anything in particular in H&CII. In my opinion, we've rarely seen Takemoto in this particular season, and thus, even with the personal growth he found at the end of the first series, there still doesn't feel like there were many differences in him with regard to Hagu.spoiler[ The one scene in particular that I'm thinking of was him looking in at Hagu who was crying in front of her easel. I'm almost certain that this was early in H&C II. He starts to walk in, but then thinks something along the lines of 'I can't help her.' It's his automatic assumption, when in reality, while he might not have been able to to make it better, he could have at least comforted her and tried to talk to her. It's for reasons like that that Hagu always seems to be lonely, even in a crowd (if Shuuji isn't there).] I do agree he's acting more comfortable around her, but he's still most comfortable when she's resting and he's just watching. Which is a nice feeling, but people need more than just to be watched. He's always there for playing, but hasn't really offered himself for anything deeper. Did he ever ask her where she sought her inspiration? I'm certain she'd quite enjoy spoiler[telling him about the boxes in her mind that she sees, if only someone would ask.]
I know that wasn't what you meant, however, I did feel it was important to clarify that Ayu was not the only one. However, the way in which this occurs with Morita is different, because as you said we only see his thought processes at the end of episode 11, and also because he's never treated her as far away--although he has always treated her very differently than everyone else (it's not like we've seen him chasing Yamada around yelling "Mouse ichigo"). We cannot assume that Takemoto has thought about that however, because it hasn't been shown. What has been shown is a continued feeling of being unable to help her. It was originally solely due to his feelings of unworthiness, spoiler[and later it's for better reasons (financial), which is a very good reason that's irrelevant. However, I never saw him truly make it clear that he saw her any closer to himself than before the trek across Japan. ]
But he does say she's beyond him. So many times in his inner thoughts (as well as the inner thoughts of Yamada and Shuuji to name a few others), they all agree she is something beyond them, something untouchable. That's not just acknowledging talent in my mind. That's saying she's something different and untouchable, and for the longest time, only Shuuji attempts to bridge that gap. Yamada does, and yes, Takemoto does in his own way sometimes when he gains the courage. But for a girl like Hagu, who's a bit on the messed up side in my mind, she needs more than what Takemoto can give. I think you've seen some of what I've said as an attack on Takemoto. It's not. It's merely my own observations on why I think the show has gone the way it has. Perhaps this is due to seeing it from the eyes of different genders? But perhaps I've still got stuck in my mind the various scenes from all seasons where Takemoto chooses to walk away than attempt to comfort an upset Hagu. It's for things like that spoiler[that Hagu has (currently, who knows what will change) chosen Shuuji. No matter how much he felt she was a different sort of person from him, he never let that bother him. Takemoto is learning. But he's still not there yet. In a few years, perhaps he would be. But if we want to get really technical, I don't think he's actually in love with her, but rather infatuated. However, that thought is neither here nor there, as I have an off-view of love.]
If I ever get the chance (unlikely, I barely have time to watch the remaining episodes), I'll try to look up some specific examples. But basically, while I saw a difference in Takemoto early on in H&CII, it never was much of a change on that particular front to me. I personally don't see it. But it could very well be there for another viewer. We all see things through different eyes. (ie, I can't see how anyone would cheer for Mayama, as I see him as an obsessed creep. But others see it as a good thing). And with that...I'm going to be late for work! ^^; |
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Hitsu
 Posts: 23 |
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Just finished watching episode 12 of Honey and Clover II, and I can't wait for the next season.
Is the next season going to be Honey and Clover III or just the continuation of II? Who is the actual leading character of this series? I thought it was Takemoto 'cause on the opening of the first episode there was a narration about how far he could ride his bike without turning back. However, as the series progresses, the story revolves around Hagu and Mayama. For those ahead of me, would you mine telling me who is with whom between the love triangle of Takemoto, Hagu, and Morita. I hope it's Takemoto and Hagu. |
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vroenis
Posts: 61 Location: Australia |
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Also just finished watching the 12th episode - absolutely brilliant. It's a shame about Hiroshi Kamiya's accident, but nevertheless I thought Kenji Nojima did a wonderful job as Takemoto.
What is this about a third season? It wouldn't surprise me at all given the popularity of the manga and anime, but is there any official information indicating that a third series is in production, or that a sequel for the manga is in the works? |
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Greennunu
Posts: 145 |
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I, too would like ot know if there will be a thrid season, I thought it concluded nicely... and though I want more of it I hope they aren't trying to squeeze this anime for all it has. |
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SomeVito
Posts: 27 |
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I believe that there is not a third season planned as of yet, probably due to the fact that they don't have any more manga to adapt. However, there is a manga spin off planned which will most likely get adapted into anime due to the popularity of the series it'll just take a couple years maybe.
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frouella
 Posts: 199 Location: 大阪 |
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Everything I heard about the series indicated that this was the final season. But then, I hadn't heard anything about a spin-off, either. I guess we'll have to wait and see...
I do have a question about the last episode, though: spoiler[When Takemoto opens the package from Hagu (Hagutaro!) on the train, are those...sandwiches? I'm assuming they are, since he ate them and all, but were they, ahem, "Honey & Clover" sandwiches? And if so, why? I know four-leaf clovers are good luck, but you're supposed to eat them???] I thought I was relatively well-versed on Japanese superstitions, but apparently not. So if anyone knows about this, please fill me in! Other than that, I thought the series ended well, but truthfully it didn't hit me quite as hard as I thought it would -- I don't know why. Don't get me wrong, I still got all weepy during spoiler[the last shot of Takemoto in his apartment ("Today I leave this room")], but maybe I just built it up in my head too much. Or maybe my connection to the series was diminished because it took a while for last episode to come out (not complainin', just sayin'). It's probably just me... 
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vroenis
Posts: 61 Location: Australia |
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Agreed - I really did like the way it ended, and would be absolutely satisfied if there were no sequels.
I know what you're saying about it not hitting you as hard frouella, at first I felt the same but I do think it may have something to do with release timing and not having watched them all at once. When the first season was releasing, I actually held off from watching the last several episodes which just happened to be spoiler[just before Takemoto takes off on his bike], so it ended up being the perfect time to stop. I waited until ep 24 was released then watched them all in one go, but with Hachikuro II I couldn't resist. After I finished watching ep 12 though (of series II), the emotions lingered in my mind quite strongly and I feel it really was a strong finish, especially spoiler[the montage that plays during the end-titles. I know it was all fairly subtle, but I really did have a great sense that everything would be alright, especially between my favourites Mayama and Rika, and Yamada and Nomiya. Given that the series has always focussed on Takemoto, I found it fitting that both series' should begin and end with him. He's been on a tremedous journey that has been told so well by the series, and his new life is only just beginning. Indeed all of the characters have new chapters in their lives beginning now, and I found it perfectly fitting and greatly emotional that the series end on this note.] As for Hagu's gift spoiler[of sandwiches, I think it's part of how she's always expressed her affection towards Takemoto. She has brought him food before when he was working on his projects, and it's a little intimacy that they share together. I haven't come across any tradition or superstition about eating luck-charms though, but given her desire to send one with Shuu when he left to study in the first season, the gesture is even more of a deeply emotional one coming from her.] |
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Bruce Lee
 Posts: 715 Location: Seattle, Washington |
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I just finally had the time to catch up on the show, and on this thread. What can I say - wow. Mylene, you truly are a wise sage! Vroenis, you too.
I liked the way the show ended, even though it wasn't the spoiler["happy" Hagu<3Takemoto]ending I was hoping for at the end of ep24. spoiler[I think that even with his bike-ride across Japan, Takemoto didn't mature as much as he would have us believe back then. I fully agree that his fascination with Hagu was more of an infatuation than anything - an idolization with her. That's why he was never emotionally "there" for her, as he really didn't - and still doesn't - feel he can handle it. He really has a lot more growing up to do. I think he realized this, and the finality of it all on the train at the end. This was a great scene - got me a bit choked up  ]
I can't tell what Morita is thinking at the end, though. spoiler[He seems to have matured more by admitting that he was trying to escape with Hagu, and by helping his brother deal with his horrible feelings after taking back the company, but still decides to run off. Maybe that's just him though - always a front on the outside until the end.] My only complaint about this season was the somewhat uneven pacing. spoiler[Because my favorite coupling was Mayama + Rika, for me this season sort of lost its steam after ep5. Once it became pretty clear that Takemoto and Hagu weren't going to happen, it sort of fizzled a bit. I wish all of the stories could have woven themselves in a bit more, as they did during Takemoto's bike journey in the last season.] As for an H&C III, I really don't see it happening. I think that most of the story lines were tied up nicely. spoiler[I'd love to see a "happy" ending for everyone, but I guess "real" is just as good.] Now that this is over, what's next to look forward to? Hana Yori Dango 2 doesn't start until January... Are there any other shows similar to this that you all would recomend? |
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vroenis
Posts: 61 Location: Australia |
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Thanks Bruce Lee, and great comments too.
Finally another Mayama and Rika fan! spoiler[I too really missed them after their big moment, but when I think about it I probably just want more self-indulgent warm-and-fuzzy time with them. I know they'll be just fine, and that especially in Rika's case, she'll take things nice and slow, and Mayama will be right there for her.] It wasn't like the rest of the series was bad, it was fantastic, but there is always this little tug at my heart at not seeing much of them. If I really want to jump on the indulgence band-wagon, spoiler[I really did want to see things develop between Yamada and Nomiya. I actually always loved Nomiya when we first met him in the first season, perhaps it's just my desire to see past people's exterior behaviour. I really did feel rewarded when he began to change in light of his love for Yamada, and I think it significantly changed her too.] Still though, I know they'll be fine, and the time that we did spend with Morita, Hagu, Shuu and of-course Takemoto was still brilliant. I'd be extremely happy for it to end here. I actually was slightly hesitant when the second season was announced until I realised there was still a decent amount of the manga out there. There's the live-action movie coming, with plenty of trailers and mini-featurettes available online, but it looks like it'll cover many of the key moments from both series, including what seems to be spoiler[the trip to the beach that they never got to make in the second season.] I think I'm just a huge fan, but even watching the trailers gets me emotional. I can't wait for an international subtitled DVD release, and the moment it's announced, I'll be preordering it from CDJapan. Truth be told Bruce Lee, from what I've watched, you might be hard-pressed at finding anything that's similar. Other series' come close, but I'll say address different issues rather than fall short of Hachikuro. You can try the two series' based on Ai Yazawa's manga, Paradise Kiss and Nana, but Nana is still trickling out so you'll have to stop yourself at some point and be content to wait for single ep releases. Depending on whether you have any qualms about certain cultural issues, I really did love Maria-sama ga Miteru and Maria-sama ga Miteru - Haru, and if you haven't already seen it, Kare Kano has some great moments that capture many elements of relationships; be aware though that it's based on the first third of the manga, after which the anime was brought to an abrupt end with no word of any further projects. I still think it's worth watching though, especially the first 12 eps. ... My essays are getting longer... |
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Patachu
Past ANN Contributor
 Posts: 1325 Location: San Diego |
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The Nodame Cantabile drama starts this fall -- and you'll want to jump the anime bandwagon once that starts in January. (Meanwhile, the manga -- licensed version is already up to Vol. 6 -- should tide you over in the meantime.) Nodame is basically, um, H&C with Morita as a girl and the main character. 
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Mylene
Posts: 2792 Location: Indiana |
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I don't really have much that I can add to what's already been said. Probably because H&C (and H&CII) has never been a favorite of mine. I really like it, and I look forward to purchasing it in one form or another (and must get the soundtracks soon), but it never grabbed me quite as hard as an Utena or a NANA, etc. Anyway, my point of posting was....HANA YORI DANGO 2!? They're coming out with another anime? Or is this a contuation of the drama that I've never seen (although I have seen some Meteor Garden)? |
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