Forum - View topic4Kids sez: manga sux0rz
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Pleroma
 Posts: 443 Location: Eromanga island |
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Indeed the point isn't that people should like the "classics" but that they should read them as part of a cultured person's knowledge base.
As far as the decline of reading I would actually say that the internet is bringing up a culture that to a degree communicates more through writing than speech. Online, the only thing that sets one apart if their skill with words. It may not be much, but its certainly better than the TV only culture the 80s gave us. Hopefully 4kids will eventually shoot themselves in foot one time too many and go belly up to the cheering and celebration of anime fans everywhere. One thing that would help this inmensely would be for a competing anime company to be formed to cater to a younger audience but without the butchering. |
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Tenchi
 Posts: 4471 Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer. |
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The highest I could find on the USA Today general Booklist chart was a volume of Fruits Basket peaking at 70. I half-remember something reaching about 67, but I can't find it mentioned using "Search", so I may be remembering wrong. Manga has a reasonably strong niche popularity, especially compared to the currently weak American comic book industry, but it's still dwarfed by the popularity of things like Harry Potter. That could be what Kahn was getting at, though he probably could have stated it a little better, considering the crowd. |
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hentai4me
 Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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errr sorry but why? how does reading 'Macbeth', 'The Tempest', 'A Midsummer Nights Dream', 'Hamlet' or 'King Lear' make you a cultured person whereas reading 'Midnight Tides', 'Singularity Sky', 'Alexander' or any of a vast number of well written, excellent books doesn't? the only reason I can see for people citing these 'classics' is because a) they are famous for lots of people to have heard of them b) they have a reputation for being 'classics' and this allows people to pretend they are 'more intellectual or better cultured' simply because of it. why is 'the Old Man and the Sea' better than 'Gardens of the Moon' just because it is a classic? sorry this is off topic but the original topic was hardly much more than a 'lets all laugh at this guy' topic. |
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Azathrael
 Posts: 745 |
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Yes, this is getting off-topic but you're arguing something extremely futile.
I'll take Shakespeare in particular since I used him as an example and he is one of the paradigms of classic literature. First of all, you're mistaking one thing. There's a difference in the kind of entertainment (or "joy", "fun", "excitement", whichever word you prefer) one receives from reading a manga and reading Hamlet. In fact, that difference separates Shakespeare into a whole new level. Manga, as well as "best sellers" (ie: The Da Vinci Code) is "cheap" reading. They're intended to sell through a plot, some interesting information, or popular trend in thought (ie: recent books on Iraq, terrorists, etc). The difference between these books and Shakespeare is pretty much the same difference between a Pulitzer Prize book and a Best Seller book. So what's the difference? First and foremost the language. Let's not consider Shakespeare for now since he's such an exception. Every Pulitzer Prize winner can be considered having used the best of the language of its age. The writing itself is different. I can only describe this difference as "superior" because I can't really describe it - you have to see for yourself. It's not overrating to say that the Pulitzer Prize books are the best examples of the usage of English at any given time. But Shakespeare, the exception. The exception of Shakespeare is that not only are his works so great in the usage of the old English, he actually made most of those words, that we still use today. Just google "words invented by Shakespeare" and you will realize that thousands and thousands of words you use today were actually invented by Shakespeare. On top of that, there are his metaphors. Let me list some of the metaphors that he created and people today still use: A laughing stock A sorry sight All that glitters is not gold All's well that ends well As pure as the driven snow At one fell swoop Bloody minded Cold comfort The Dogs of War Fair play For ever and a day High time I will wear my heart upon a sleeve In the twinkling of an eye Love is blind Neither here nor there Too much of a good thing Vanish into thin air (Taken from this thread) As you can see, none of those metaphors would exist if Shakespeare didn't exist. Just mentioning some of those metaphors make me feel as if any continuation in justifying why Shakespeare's works is considered superior would be time wasting. So I can go into actual content, Shakespeare's sonnets (beautiful and worth reading, I strongly recommend), Shakespeare's life (such a great writer with such a poor background), and enough information to write a college thesis paper but in the end, it's just undeniable that classics (which Shakespeare represents) are on a completely different level than, for example, manga, and should be treated as such. In short, reading manga entertains but reading classics not only entertain, but expand your knowledge and understanding of language. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Agreed on all counts, and let's not forget that classic literature is most often considered 'classic' because it speaks great truths about the human condition or has a deeper message and meaning that resonates throughout the ages. The classics enrich us and deepen our understanding of ourselves and the world at large. but hey there'z no dragons or elves so why are they any better than manga rite?! I mean who cares about thius shakespeare guy anyway |
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LydiaDianne
 Posts: 5633 Location: Southern California |
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To me what is so disappointing about Mr. Kahn's statements, is that he, like the scriptwriter from the other thread, do not seem to give a damn about their target audience. That the kids (and us) are simply a source of money and that why should our opinions matter...
Money is not the end all, be all of everything. But then, I'm not a CEO of a corporation. I also think that he and the scriptwriter really need to get out into the "real" world every once in a while and LISTEN to what we are trying to tell him. Perhaps then, they might understand why some people are so angry/frustrated with them. |
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hentai4me
Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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I'm finding that quite insulting, you have proven in your previous sentence that you ca type and write like a normal person yet you end in a fashion clearly meant to be an insult. Now I'll admit I am quite impressed by all of those metaphors and words as I didn't know that(hence the question...it wasnt rhetoric) and yes I suppose that puts Shakespeare pretty high up. Doesnt mean I want to read any of his books but still... so now I cant realstically refute the fact that Shakespeare is indeed very impressive(I knew he must have done something to garner such acclaim) but I can thoroughly dislike this belief that 'Classics' are 'better' and reading them makes you a better person(per se...). my biggest gripe is this kind of idea that if you dont read/like the classics you arent a literate person. I get it alot, maybe not from too many of you people(Zac's last post and Steve earlier are exceptions) but I frequent a book club and they are all too quick to dismiss things that arent 'classics' as simply air headed fluff only for filling time. Now I dont like Shakespeare's books(I dont mind them in plays if they are done well...but I dont frequent theatre) or many other classics and yes I do greatly enjoy reading about 'dragons and elves and magic' but I am pretty sure that short of those who actually spend time studying literature or take a keen interest in it(for example I never studied English beyond 'O' levels but did things like Physics and Chemistry) I am a damn site mor eliterate than people who do read them and flaunt this fact. what I am getting at is dont dismiss other books simply because they arent 'classics' just think, in a hundred years time they very well might be but youd never know it beause you didn't read them because they werent 'classics'. I'll admit that there is a lot of fluff and poorly written rubbish out there, especially in genres like Fantasy and Science Fiction, but occasionally you will find a gem. For example Steven Erikson, I stumbled upon him by picking up a book in an airport, it was big(some 1000 odd pages) and I had a long flight. I found that his use of language and plot devices as well as simple pacing was exceptional, he managed to weave a convoluted, complex story with dozens of main leads, dozens of sub plots, overarching stories...a veritable web of causality in just a single book, bringing each thread into a focussed, well defined whole. I have not once seen a writer of a 'Classic' do the same, at least not in the same magnitude and keeping each and every character and sub plot interesting and deserving in their own right. But wait, he wrote Fantasy, thats all about elves and goblins and dragons, it cant be good(thats actually what someone said when I presented the book to them). simply put, dont think that just the clasics have this kind of language usage, this kind of enhancement of your understanding(I picked up around 40 or 50 new words from reading one of his books) can only come from classics, dont thin that just because ou arent reading classics you cant be as literate as someone who is. In relation to manga, well I am only just beginning to step into it, my main thrust was with western fantasy/sci fi but if someone can present a series that is as powerful as Saikano animated then cant we at least expect something similar from his written counterpart? (I'll be a bit shameless here, peruse Erikson at your leisure here http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/026-3995442-6338853 and here http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showthread.php?t=315 if you must remove them please leave the rest of the post as intact as possible...) |
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darkhunter
 Posts: 2992 Location: Los Angelas |
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Thus he's taking advantage of the sitaution no matter how many people disagree. Now if more kids would rather read after school than watch cartoon.
Al Kahn knows kids in general don't like to read offend and rather watch cartoon here in the U.S. If you're saying most kids like to read rather than watch afternoon cartoon or even the simpson, I might roll my eyes. He's taking advantage of the situation and that's his personal feeling about "kids don't read". Yes Harry Potter is turning kids to reading, but they only enjoy it because of the Movie in the first place. Yes there is a market in manga, but it probably won't make as much as what they're doing now. It's probably a bigger risk to take too, looking at ADV's manga. I'm trying to stay nuetral on the situation. You might not like him, but he's probably rich for a reason. You being fustrated, probably doesn't effect his business and choices, because his companies are aiming towards kids. People are forgetting that 4kids is looking to make money, not to make hardcore anime fan happy. And I don't think younger kids mind that their "anime" is being Americanize. One Piece was definitely a bad choice though. Last edited by darkhunter on Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:57 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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deathbringer
Posts: 276 |
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Welcome to ANN Superiority Hour. Where any difference in opinion with the staff automatically makes them right and you look like a noob. That's why I don't hang out here that much, I prefer to be where people aren't totally dismissive of my opinions. I have read some classics by Dickens, Dumas, Marquez, Steinbeck, but because I'm not fond of Shakespeare's writing style I am not a "cultured person" (I laugh at the fact that someone would even presume to know what makes a person cultured)? |
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deathbringer
Posts: 276 |
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...double post.
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Godaistudios
Posts: 2075 Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment) |
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Well stated. Hentai4me, perhaps I can add to this a bit. Did you ever see the movie, Mr. Holland's Opus? Perhaps you may recall the scene where he plays some [then] pop music and then shows them how it's related to classical music and Mozart specifically? Nobody is attacking the current works of today. Perhaps some of the writings we have today are destined to become "classics" several generations from now. That's not the issue. The issue is that in order to truly appreciate the works or art, writing, music, etc. of today, you need to have a fundamental understanding of how they were influenced and developed by the classics. There is a difference between reading and actually liking Shakespeare. If you go to college, you are probably bound to read many works that you may not like. The cirriculum there isn't based on what they think you will like reading. It's based on you attaining an education so you can appreciate the world you live in today. |
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Ataru
 Posts: 2306 Location: Missouri (Strikeman) |
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Once again, if anime fans want to hurt him where it counts, pick up One Piece instead of bitching about him on some board that he doesn't come to. That'll teach him. |
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DemonEyesLeo
 Posts: 844 Location: Japan |
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I'm beginning to think that maybe he should have said that manga's bad for HIS business. His business revolves around children whom, I'll agree with him to an extent, don't read as much. But that's his target market, whereas Viz, Tokyopop and Dark Horse to name a few, focus on a broader market to included teenagers and young adults in addition to children. So maybe manga's not good for his business, and so again I ask what he's even doing at a panel like this.
I don't think this is the case at all. 3 Harry Potter books had already been published before the first movie was even in filming. Now maybe the movies generated more popularity for the series, but it was already popular long before the movies. |
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Craeyst Raygal
 Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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In some respects, I can agree that a "classic" novel does not automatically equate to a "superior" novel or even one that's inherently enjoyable.
To this day, I've yet to find myself able to enjoy "The Lord of the Flies" or "Animal Farm". Both books leave me cold. However, it's easy for me to recognize the enduring qualities of both stories, and that is what truly defines a classic anything; that it posesses enduring quality. Hentai, you mention Science Fiction. Do you realize that in the late 60's there was a rebellion amongst contemporary sci-fi authors against their forebears (primarily Asimov and Heinlein). Writers such as Philip K. Dick (Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep), John Brunner (The Shockwave Rider) and most vocally Brian Aldiss (The Saliva Tree) began to rail that they were the first to truly explore the possibilities of science fiction, and that those before - especially Heinlein, whom Aldiss referred to as a "Dinosaur" - were crude, boorish, and generally amateurish as authors. Now, if you're not familiar with Robert A. Heinlein (and if you're not, do at least become familiar with his works, even if you don't become a fan, because - by my recollection, no one has collected more Hugos and Nebulas than R.A.H), his catalogue includes some of the most socially pervasive and influential novels in the genre. A brief list of the high points merely includes..... Stranger in a Strange Land Starship Troopers The Number of the Beast Time Enough for Love Glory Road Friday The Moon is a Harsh Mistress Methusalah's Children To Sail Beyond the Sunset Now, not everyone likes Heinlein. He's a little pedantic, frequently accused of mysogyny, and his works are always on the epic side of the coin. However, the broad scope of his works, and their place in the building blocks of sci-fi, has made them classics. Heinlein's work hasn't aged a day, in truth, and it retains all of its relevance, its emotion, its impact, and its quality, and I'll daresay that in another 50 years you can still pick up Stranger in a Strange Land and be enthralled by how complete its view of humanity is. The easiest anime equivalent, I'd think, is showing how watchable, enjoyable, and relevant Mobile Suit Gundam still is after nearly thirty years, even as potentially "superior" mecha series have come and went over that time period. New works expand. Classics endure. |
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Alucard27
Posts: 45 Location: the seat in front of my comp |
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Man, this guy certainly hasn't read anything himself recently.
I don't read too many of the "classics," since my attention span will not allow. However, I do pick up books on guys like former US Presidents, and, most recently, Bill Belichick (head coach of the New England Patriots). I also have read one of the greatest books ever, "The Green Mile" by Stephen King. People not reading, HAH! My sister blows through those Harry Potter books in 3 days! |
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