Forum - View topicMost Improved Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Well, I definitely like the looks of that prediction! Though I have to say that right now my Group B predictions are looking not so great
It took me awhile to figure out the math behind what you were doing but I got it after a re-read or to. It will be very interesting to see how closely this matches the final results. |
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One-Eye
 Posts: 2261 |
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Group B-17
Chihiro, Spirited Away vs. Megumi “Nodame” Noda, Nodame Cantabile In order to rescue herself and her parents Chihiro has to adapt to a strange new world, its rules, overcome a witch, plus her crybaby and scaredy-cat tendencies. I think its a transformational journey for Chihiro. Voting for Chihiro, Spirited Away. Group B-18 Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! vs. Mashiro blan de Windbloom, My-Otome Mashiro is a spoiled brat throughout a good chunk of the series and no one ever says no to her even to her most extravagant demands. The problem with Mashiro's development is that it is actually pretty standard fare. She's a selfish and self centered ruler, learns of her people's poverty, vows to do better and then...actually she does nothing because the end of the show is mostly Otome battles. So her vowing to do better is about as far as we go. Unlike say Youko from Twelve Kingdoms who has to deal with corruption and actually goes to investigate the roots of the problems in her Kingdom. I think Mashiro may be a little over rated here, whereas I think Kyoko is a little more unique. Voting for Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat!. Group B-19 Ringo Oginome, Penguindrum vs. Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood I voted for Ringo last round and while I think her empathy for people who she could consider her enemies is commendable I also recall thinking at the time that it was a little convenient. Voting for Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. Group B-20 Taiga Aisaka, Toradora! vs. Shoukei, The Twelve Kingdoms I own Toradora! and Taiga is one of the few Tsundere characters I actually like. I think the show did a good job of capturing her fragility early on, which helped rope me in. However, I think that Ryuji was her rock. He balanced her out and provided stability for her. I'm not convinced that she was ready to leave that stability and deal with her dysfunctional family. The ending felt a little forced in part do to that. As far as 12 Kingdoms I think the best parts are the interesting characters and setting, but I do think the show is a mess at times. Recap episodes, choppy transitions, unfinished story lines, and ham-fisted character development would try my patience during my viewing. However, I find that Shoukei goes through a greater range of obstacles and situations on her journey than Taiga does. Starting out as a princess, falling from grace, dealing with her bitterness, and finally finding a place for herself is a much more complete arc. Voting for Shoukei, The Twelve Kingdoms. |
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Galap
Moderator
 Posts: 2354 |
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B17: Noda. Though I've seen Spirited Away and not Nodame Cantabile, I'm going with Noda because for one, I didn't think that Chihiro's development was very interesting, and wasn't handled very well (actually aside from visually I'm not much of a fan of that film). On the other hand, since in my high school years I was very serious about music and understand what it's like to become serious about playing an instrument and getting into that culture.
B18: Mashiro blan de Windbloom. It seems interesting to have a story about a ruler coming to actually care about her subjects and see being part of the ruling class as a responsibility. B19: Scar. It's been a while since I've seen either FMA series, so forgive me if I confuse events from the two, but I remember Scar's development as being pretty profound, since he begins with a bit of the 'honorable warrior' thing going, and for once, the 'honorable warrior' is very destructive and antagonistic (which I really liked). However, over time the proportion of the fights in which he sides with the heroes slowly increases, as his sensibilities slowly shift to ally himself with the heroic faction, and away from senseless destruction. B20: Shoukei. This is another case of someone who was once naive gaining perspective through their experiences. Changes from evil to good can be quite compelling, but changes from ignorant to wise can be just as interesting. |
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Unicorn_Blade
 Posts: 1153 Location: UK |
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[
Group B-17 Chihiro, Spirited Away Vote goes to Chihiro. To be honest it has been a while I have seen both and my memories are a bit foggy, but Chihiro's improvement impressed me far more than Nodame's. vs. Megumi “Nodame” Noda, Nodame Cantabile Group B-18 Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! vs. Mashiro blan de Windbloom, My-Otome Kyoko Mogami impressed me on two fronts. She changed herself. Kyoko starts as an obsessed with vengeance, young girl, too mature and not mature enough at the same time. And then, at the end, she is a more balanced, self-confident young woman who works hard not to prove what she can do to others but to herself. Her development is not finished by the end of the series what makes her even better in my eyes- she realises there is always room for improvement and will strive to make the most out of the opportunities ahead of her. Group B-19 Ringo Oginome, Penguindrum vs. Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood Scar, regardless which FMA versions you watch, makes a massive improvement in terms of his outlook on the world. Full of anger, hateful, a cold-blooded killer, turns into someone willing to admit his crimes and stand hand in hand with people responsible for crimes against his people to save their nation. The change in Scar is gradual and powerful, and manages to inspire a lot of other people. Group B-20 Taiga Aisaka, Toradora! vs. Shoukei, The Twelve Kingdoms[/quote] Based purely on the write-ups and other members arguments, Shoukei looks like a stronger contestant in this match up with her improvement being more meaningful. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Group B-17
Chihiro, 9 vs. Megumi “Nodame” Noda, 3 Group B-18 Kyoko Mogami, 5 vs. Mashiro blan de Windbloom, 7 Group B-19 Ringo Oginome, 1 vs. Scar, 11 Group B-20 Taiga Aisaka, 1 vs. Shoukei, 11 So, I think B-19 and B-20 are pretty much decided. B-17 is too, probably, unless we get a string of people voting for Nodame in the last days. B-18 hadn't been that close until 3 of the last 4 votes in that round were for Kyoko, allowing the gap to close a bit. That one is definitely the one to watch. And the one that could probably hurt minigames the most, since only 5 people expected Mashiro to still be around ... I wonder if any of them thought she would get to round 4? |
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mow123
 Posts: 339 |
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Group B-17
Chihiro, Spirited Away vs. Megumi “Nodame” Noda, Nodame Cantabile Chihiro adapts quickly to her strange new world while shaking her fears and less becoming characteristics. Nodame is a bit of a mixed bag. She does improve quite a bit, but her quirks are so severe that they really hold her back in the long run. Of the two, I thought Chiaki had stronger and more consistent improvement. Group B-18 Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! vs. Mashiro blan de Windbloom, My-Otome Kyoko is a very strong choice by improving by on the physical and personality fronts. She starts out looking like a mess living up to only a fraction of her full potential, and by the end of the first episode she is barely recognizable, and it is a massive improvement. Also, this is more than a story of a girl overcoming revenge, but a girl standing up for for herself after being a doormat groupie. Others have understated a few of her improvement. Kyoko is actively pursuing her own goals and dreams with ambition and perseverance. At the start of the show, this determination and drive was completely lacking from her character. Lastly, near the end of the series, she also learns to temper her vengeance while also not going to back the other direction striking more of a balance. Group B-19 Ringo Oginome, Penguindrum vs. Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood The general consensus seems to be Scar, and I agree. He really makes a 180 flip, and he does it in a way that's consistent and credible. One of his more profound changes is how he perceives the world and others. Lastly, even though the improvement is significant; it is also gradual which makes his transformation more believable. Group B-20 Taiga Aisaka, Toradora! vs. Shoukei, The Twelve Kingdoms Taiga barely scrapped by last round with questionable merits, and this time she faces an even stronger opponent. Shoukei's improvement is not only much more grander in scope, but it is also more compelling and dramatic. It is impressive to watch a proud, sheltered, naive girl who was largely ignorant about the world slowly grow into a respectable woman despite the pain and hardship she must endure. |
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CrowLia
 Posts: 5505 Location: Mexico |
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I wasn't gonna vote this week since most matches seem pretty decided already, but with the chance to turn the table in Kyoko's favor I decided to chime in
B-17 Chihiro. While I've supported Nodame in previous rounds, I feel strongly about Chihiro's growing and maturing process through the movie, how she figures out her way in a completely strange world and comes out of it a strong and determined young girl B-18 Kyoko Mogami. I don't feel particularly about either of them, but I haven't been truly convinced by Mashiro's arguments up til now and the little I know about Kyoko makes me want to try and save her B-19 Ringo Oginome. While a losing vote, I think this is the match I feel more strongly about. Scar's growth is undeniable, but I felt immensely touched by Ringo gradually coming to terms with the loss of her sister, but most of all, figuring out her own identity and her true desires instead of lying to herself and trying to live the dream Momoka couldn't. The moment she realizes that this is what she's been doing and that it is not what she wants was fantastic and beautiful for her. B-20 Shoukei. Mostly because I think Taiga's improvement is very minimal, and while I love Toradora, I don't think she's a strong competitor at all. |
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WhiteHairGirls
 Posts: 4713 Location: New York City |
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Hmm since 3 of the matches are over, I will keep my explanations for those to a bare minimum.
Group B-17 Voting for: Chihiro I didn't watch either of them, but I feel Chihiro made a more impactful improvement. I am always impressed with a kid becoming mature at a young age, since most kids are either shy or annoying brats. Group B-18 Voting for: Kyoko I loved how Kyoko transformed throughout the anime. Early on she was blinded by revenge, but later on she truly appreciated the art of show business. Not to mention all the people she helped on her journey. Mashiro is a strong candidate, but I believe Kyoko deserves to go on. Group B-19 Voting for: Scar A badass that realized his wrongful ways? That gets my vote. Group B-20 Voting for: Shoukei Taiga made a nice improvement, but that is nowhere close to Shoukei's improvement. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18223 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Oh, I can practically guarantee that Kyoko comes back and wins this (EDIT: she's now leading) because I'm seeing there almost the exact same trend that I saw with Daikichi and Clare last round: Clare built up a sizable lead early but the tide turned in Daikichi's favor late, with the reversal largely fueled by "Clare's improvement is more standard, while Daikichi's is unique" comments. Which, honestly, I find one of the weakest kinds of support; this should be about the quality and degree of improvement, not how different it is. But I didn't restrict people from using that kind of supporting argument, so whatever.
Why is being "standard fare" a problem? A "standard" type of improvement done well and to a great extent isn't any worse than a (supposedly) unique improvement. Mashiro's is done well.
Then you're missing a lot that is shown. She has a fundamental change in attitude about pretty much everything over the course of the series, and that is quite evident in her actions late in the series. It shows in her decision to take a stand against what the Aswad was planning to do with her people, it shows in the fact that she stopped running and hiding from responsibilities, it shows in her taking an active role in retaking her kingdom, and it shows in her willingly working with and supporting Arika, whom she had regularly been butting heads with earlier in the series. Most importantly, she was a really irritating character for much of the first half of the series but was a very respectable one by the end. Kyoko, from what little I've seen, was pretty much likable and fully sympathetic throughout. That alone should be justification for Mashiro winning this match, as she turns around much more completely. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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I disagree with the notion that a character who was likeable at the beginning is automatically inferior in development to a character who wasn't. Likeable characters can still have complete and compelling character arcs and so, while I agree with you about Daikichi's victory being undeserved, I am not convinced that you can claim the same about Kyoko, should she win (and while it looks like she might, I remember Yukari having a good boost of momentum at the end of her match and still coming up short).
I admit, I am not overly familiar with either series but I haven't seen anything that really convinced me to go for Mashiro and part of me wonders if her support isn't partly due to the fact that her development sounds strikingly close to another character's, who may or may not be the favourite. |
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mow123
Posts: 339 |
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Kyoko starts off as unlikable. She's begins the story as an extremely submissive sycophant who lives vicariously through her idol. She has no aspirations of her own, and it very clear from her appearance and actions she gives little to no consideration to herself. This devotion is directed to a thankless, arrogant jerk who cares little about her. Her devotion is little more than rabid one-sided fangirlism. Only when she overcomes this, does she develop any backbone, strong personality or dreams of her own. I think Kyoko deserves to win here, and it's not because she is less "run of the mill".
Last edited by mow123 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:16 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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rosebrook11
 Posts: 1181 |
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Group B-17
Chihiro, Spirited Away vs. Megumi “Nodame” Noda, Nodame Cantabile I supported Nodame up until this point, but I can't vote for her over Chihiro whose maturation I think was handled in a more direct and active process compared to Nodame. Group B-18 Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat! vs. Mashiro blan de Windbloom, My-Otome A lot of people are brining up the fact that Kyoko improves more in the manga. While it's true that she shows continued improvement in the manga I don't think that should diminish the imense improvements that she makes in the anime. For one you have the scene at the end of the first episode where she snaps and takes the initiative to not be the self-concious girl doting on Sho. She changes her personality, gets a lot of spunk and also has a lot more determination and motivation. However, she is still far from perfect. After the end of the first episode, she has another hurdle to go over and this is where the bulk of her improvement lies. She's become incredible cynical, revenged-focused and has built up a wall around herself. Through her work in acting and building relationships with those around she begins to open herself more to others. Other voters in the tournament have mentioned that she needed to 'fall in love with Ren' in order to have the best improvement and I disagree with this statement entirely. She doesn't need to fall in love with anyone to become a better person or a better character but rather she had to overcome the negative emotions that Sho left her with in order to be able to succeed in relationships in general, not neccesarily ones of romance. Another thing that is very important to her improvement is that she does not go through an easy time in trying to give up on her revenge motivations. She ends up seeing show a few times throughout the series and their last meeting, while shooting his PV, shows how far she's come. The idea of revenge did pop into her mind and the begining, but she pushed it aside and was able to do a show stopping performance in her role. Group B-19 Ringo Oginome, Penguindrum vs. Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood This is useless, but Ringo gets my vote here. Ringo finds a way to change herself despite learning about a negative situation, while Scar changed after learning the truth about a situation that had affected him negatively. I think both are actually very strong. Group B-20 Taiga Aisaka, Toradora! vs. Shoukei, The Twelve Kingdoms Again another useless vote. But Taiga gets my vote here. It takes a lot of courage to be able to become a better person after being affected with family drama. |
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CrowLia
Posts: 5505 Location: Mexico |
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Honestly get over it Key. Worst wars have been lost and Daikichi deserves to be in this tournament. If everyone spent ages griping about their favorite characters that didn't make it, there would be no end to it |
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One-Eye
Posts: 2261 |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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I see the logic here, and it seems like it should be a quick and dirty, but useful, rule of thumb. I ran into a problem when I scanned the rest of the results, though. The person who currently is 8th in that list is actually last at the moment, and from where I stand, very likely to remain there. Your method considers how badly one could lose, and supposes the individual does the absolute worst possible. If you summed up that chart the other way, it considers the absolute best possible someone could do. There are outliers this way, as well (Yourself for one, at 2021, compared to Rosebrook, our current leader, at 1779, with most others in the 1000-1400 range). If you turn the two sums into a ratio, however, it looks like the extremes created by more unlikely choices are smoothed out a little. Unfortunately, this only works until either one of the totals for anyone goes negative, then there's a whole new problem. |
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